Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' opinions of the current WebRTC API and SDP as a control surface
Stefan Håkansson LK <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com> Sat, 13 July 2013 18:40 UTC
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From: Stefan Håkansson LK <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com>
To: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' opinions of the current WebRTC API and SDP as a control surface
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Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 18:40:23 +0000
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References: <CAJrXDUGMohpBdi-ft-o_uE7ewFkw7wRY9x7gYEncjov7qi-Bew@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBPa4wBS8pYq=0wesMOfL6TkeC7QGAZ8pWwOcnkhkJqWfA@mail.gmail.com> <CAJrXDUFxo8P8wxh8jX3019yPQOuwQ0eVdsFmRXsbWdWinnc5oA@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBOTKpmFC34waqZ4kA-P8t+E6yY9gX1JFCHhsBH0+CF-Qw@mail.gmail.com> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C30BC0F@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAD5OKxtKLMf_d=8GSMrqfNhDHPe9MFP2ZTKzZHFn9CyMr-gSVQ@mail.gmail.com> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C30C833@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAJrXDUHOZf21aXgQMrdjTV8Fok+fVp-2SuhTra0JGy0Jq=Wi0Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAHp8n2mNdNiXCCNUdEvKgAsh_pPn=jNs+56VCg4PMKbUmOGztQ@mail.gmail.com> <CABkgnnUZMAuDocwZWXn9a+Xj3kkcX0uyRgjDmy-hQxpTDKWj3w@mail.gmail.com> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C30CF49@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CALiegfmiRsOXL97XDzMRQ_Vvbk9zaDBBvCPxr_=zbDJbnMZ_8A@mail.gmail.com> <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1C30D110@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <CAJrXDUGNCrN5kgmrd4YK=7FtDd-LwA54aykJUP9_3sGSB42TkQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: "<rtcweb@ietf.org>" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' opinions of the current WebRTC API and SDP as a control surface
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On 7/12/13 7:32 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Stefan Håkansson LK > <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com > <mailto:stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com>> wrote: > > On 2013-07-09 12:18, Iñaki Baz Castillo wrote: > > 2013/7/9 Stefan Håkansson LK <stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com > <mailto:stefan.lk.hakansson@ericsson.com>>: > >> I want to be very clear and careful on what I say. So I am > repeating: > >> > >> * My comment that I think Eric is right in that there is > consensus on > >> providing APIs that allow most use-cases to be met without SDP > mangling > >> is meant only in that context: SDP O/A is kept (and > PeerConnection more > >> or less as is and so on). > > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > You insist that "there is consensus on keeping SDP O/A but > providing a > > better API". > > I must be expressing myself quite badly, because the message seems not > to get through. > > * I think we have consensus on adding API that allows most use-cases to > be met without SDP mangling (given that SDP O/A is kept naturally) > > * We discussed last year an alternative API that did not use SDP at all > (and did not use PeerConnection). The decision at that time was to > continue developing the API based on PeerConnection and SDP O/A. > > Have not stated anything more than that. > > > Thank you for clarifying, Stefan. It's often very difficult for those > of us who weren't there to understand what was consensus, and what > wasn't, and what was decided and what was decided and what wasn't. It > seems that if you ask 10 people, you get 10 different answers. > > > In other words, it's hard to see much consensus on what we have > consensus on. > > > So thank you for your clarifications. It's probably not a very fun job > for you :). Along with that, I have two more questions for you: > > > 1. You said we have consensus on adding API that allows most use-cases > to be met without SDP mangling. Since that point in time has there been > in any progress in adding such APIs? Can you give me a rough feel for > how much time has passed, how many proposals have been made, how many > have been accepted, and how many have been implemented? I think it's > great that we'll do this "someday", but I'd like to get a feel for how > far away "someday" is. Thanks in advance. > > 2. You said we have consensus against an alternative API. Was that > consensus against any additions to the API that would allow JS to bypass > SDP, or was that a consensus against just that particular alternative > API? I'd like to get a feel for how many people voted for "no; let's > not go down that specific road" vs. "no; we cannot go on any road but > this one". I think there's a big difference between the two. Thanks > again in advance. > > > By the way, Ted asked us to move discussions about the API to > public-webrtc, so should we do that now? Yes. I will respond there (probably tomorrow). > > > > Stefan > > > Given current discussions IMHO it is clear there is not > > such a consensus (not at all). Or may be you are just talking about > > two years ago in some IETF meeting (if so I'm sorry). > > > > Please review the results in > > > https://docs.google.com/a/aliax.net/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuaKXw3SkHMSdHlZdV9RN0xSWFhybVl4anJLRkVPV0E#gid=1 > > > > Bad for advanced stuff: 94% > > OK for 1.0: 40% > > > > IMHO such a result indicates all but "let's keep SDP O/A and > improve a > > bit the API" (I mean now, in July 2013). > > > > > > Best regards. > > > > > > > > -- > > Iñaki Baz Castillo > > <ibc@aliax.net <mailto:ibc@aliax.net>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' opini… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Binod
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Philipp Hancke
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Jim Barnett
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Jim Barnett
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application Dev… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] e= lines (Re: Summary of Application… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Summary… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] On babies and bathwater (was Re: Sum… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Summary of Application Developers' o… Iñaki Baz Castillo