Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate to be re-opened
Robin Raymond <robin@hookflash.com> Tue, 18 June 2013 22:11 UTC
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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:11:21 -0400
From: Robin Raymond <robin@hookflash.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate to be re-opened
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That's exactly part of the trouble. People thinking we need a signaling/negotiation framework at all for media. We don't. We don't need to replace SDP with anything. It's just not necessary at all. Yes, SIP guys will need to create and parse SDP compatible with their networks, but it's still better to do that from a dynamic updatable language like JavaScript than hard coding all that inside the browser. They don't need the browser to generate something as pre-built into the hardcoded binary that generates serialized formats for the interface to the mechanics underneath. Likewise, we don't need a JSON version nor an XML version of SDP. Start treating the media and RTC like an OS API and not like a signaling layer. Sure, restrictions for security reasons must exist (like requiring ICE agreement on the wire) but beyond that the sky should be the limit. If we have a programmatic interface to the lower layer components, we can wrap it up with our own JavaScript in any method at a higher level someone might want. JavaScript is a powerful language, so there's no reason we couldn't do some really cool stuff. JSEP? No problem. Traditional SIP/SDP? Check. XMPP? Yup. However Skype negotiates? Yup. Open Peer (and other future protocols) with stateless negotiation? Check. Custom silo protocol? Yup. You have sources, like camera's / microphones. You need to be able to to get information about the formats available to be opened. You have outputs like screens and speakers. You have a mixer where you can pin in/out the various sources. You have codecs. You have media streams going in and coming out from a mixer where you can map media to RTP streams. You have DTLS connections for arbitrary data. I'm sure I'm missing something in the 5 minutes it took to write that but the point is that this isn't rocket science and it's not difficult to wrap the basic constructs like those with a decent API (even if the details can, should and will be argued but have little impact on the global scheme of things [unlike SDP]) and much easier to come to decisions because they are well known constructs with limited scopes. With JavaScript shims as needed, we can build out anything out of those building blocks we might dream up. Stick to the core of what each part is supposed to do and leave the rest to the higher level. Let's define those APIs and let's stick to the RTC layer consisting of only: STUN/ICE/TURN, DTLS, RTP/RTCP and security/encryption requirements (and any other low-level data/media level requirements). Get rid of this inane requirement for SDP and offer/answer negotiation which is just a road block and hinderance and doesn't add much value but whose long term costs/consequences are huge! Those are all lower level APIs that can entirely be done without a signaling protocol like SDP with offer/answer at all. Not everyone does SDP. Nor does everyone want to SDP, and future signaling protocols likely won't want to do SDP. The trouble currently with WebRTC is we have virtual no low level API control and only way to interface to those components is frequently exclusively via SDP and it forces everyone to use this horrifically monolithic do-everything serialized format and offer/answer round trip to boot to affect change instead of allowing lower level control over what's going on in each component; and control over the media mapping without requiring a round trip like offer/answer requires... This decision was made primarily by the industry SIP folks (some of which have changed their minds since), many of whom still mistakenly believe that without SDP there is no compatibility with WebRTC, or believe that it produces greater compatibility, or believe we must have "something" common to signal media information; all of which is completely untrue. I really do want to hear the rational in requiring SDP and offer/answer. I don't see it as another other than a major hinderance towards compatibility and innovation rather than in favour of it (including for the SIP guys). As I understand it, the resistance to opening the discussion again comes down to fear. Because we are afraid that if we decide to reopen this can o' worms that we won't be able to have consensus again and WebRTC will never happen. The fear comes from knowing people would never agree to another media related signaling format (correctly, as it's not even needed and counter productive to have one). I mean no disrespect when I ask this but is the argument against talking about it: "Let's all stick to something really bad because it's better than nothing at all, since we won't be able to come to a new agreement on a replacement to SDP (when we don't really need a replacement)?" I'm really trying (hard) to understand the resistance to removing SDP or even discussing about something so fundamentally bad and flawed as SDP with offer/answer! What are the vested interests and rational in keeping something this bad as this intact? I want WebRTC to succeed, but, sorry, SDP (in my opinion) has got to go. -Robin > Adam Roach <mailto:adam@nostrum.com> > 18 June, 2013 4:22 PM > > > Many men have died on that hill. I'm still sad about the colossal time > and talent sink represented by these 61 pages: > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-sdpng-08.txt > > I have no reason to think that burning WebRTC down the the ground and > starting over would produce a different result. If anything, the > issues are more contentious now than they were in 2005. > > /a
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Alexandre GOUAILLARD
- [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate to be… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Erik Lagerway
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Christer Holmberg
- [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or not… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Richard Barnes
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Priorities - Was: Requesting "SDP or… Parthasarathi R
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Emil Ivov
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Robin Raymond
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Peter Thatcher
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Iñaki Baz Castillo
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Bossiel thioriguel
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Requesting "SDP or not SDP" debate t… Martin Thomson