Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01

Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> Thu, 05 December 2013 22:10 UTC

Return-Path: <lear@cisco.com>
X-Original-To: perpass@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: perpass@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C201AE1EE for <perpass@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Dec 2013 14:10:44 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -9.502
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vUYB7JjxH9o2 for <perpass@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Dec 2013 14:10:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15401AE1C8 for <perpass@ietf.org>; Thu, 5 Dec 2013 14:10:38 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=877; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1386281436; x=1387491036; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wcwnUZk16WJ4BSGcrVSU09MhhmfhVdjXUYYQ0uJZs8Q=; b=ItJKac+uMFkjTaq36qibordWh66ejdAFOjhpa3EEhverRSh/wtfzPHHN Ul2UPiXkteMNs4O/D4UfJfFLF0LimY7ZZWx3cRvpK4KPZ7gi9EOAcspYo LTd+DkdlyoSOAQpEjeXLSoUoU32iUJtyCtj1k4j637idFJD2XjfqULz0I 4=;
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhwFAA/5oFKQ/khR/2dsb2JhbABZgweEB7VygR0WdIIlAQEBBCNVARALDgQGAgIFFgsCAgkDAgECATcOBgEMAQcBAYd+sUqPfxeBKY1XB4JrgUgDlDGDY5ITgyk8
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.93,836,1378857600"; d="scan'208";a="1142226"
Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Dec 2013 22:10:34 +0000
Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp8022.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp8022.cisco.com [10.61.95.85]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id rB5MASG6026078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Dec 2013 22:10:30 GMT
Message-ID: <52A0F9D5.1070907@cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 22:10:29 +0000
From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com>
References: <E2DA1477-C86E-441E-A33D-D47A0D67AFF3@iab.org> <EF9BD1E4-6EF3-4035-AC4E-1A2D3CADE615@mnot.net> <529E8494.7000806@perens.com> <20131204111309.GB11727@nic.fr> <529F61D8.6030105@perens.com> <20131204171207.GC19914@thunk.org> <529F63C0.3040804@perens.com> <529F88AC.3090904@appelbaum.net> <529F90A0.8000706@perens.com> <CFE20C30-34F4-4252-840E-E9CB5182BD26@fugue.com> <529FBDA6.9030100@perens.com> <C1ADDCB2-E4BD-438A-8FF2-CE1BEAFFCFC6@fugue.com> <529FC5E3.6090008@perens.com> <09EFA47D-6A4B-4BA7-9FC5-A564C11CA3FA@fugue.com>
In-Reply-To: <09EFA47D-6A4B-4BA7-9FC5-A564C11CA3FA@fugue.com>
X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: perpass <perpass@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [perpass] perens-perpass-appropriate-response-01
X-BeenThere: perpass@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "The perpass list is for IETF discussion of pervasive monitoring. " <perpass.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/perpass>, <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/perpass/>
List-Post: <mailto:perpass@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/perpass>, <mailto:perpass-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 22:10:45 -0000

Hi Ted,

On 12/5/13 12:21 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
> If your example for "harm the operation of the internet" is transparent caching, that point has been answered: define a protocol for caching that is not transparent, and allow the incentive structure around end users who benefit from that caching to motivate them to use it, rather than simply forcing them to use it in their own best interest.


It's fine to have aspirations, and establishing an architecture in which
intermediaries can be properly identified and authorized is important. 
However, let's not take aspirations that do not even exist in the form
of an Internet-Draft, assume them as fact, and dismiss those who live in
the real world where caching is a necessity in bandwidth-constrained
environments.

Please let's take this step by step.  A few drafts that get us there
seem in order.

Eliot