Re: [hrpc] Censorship
bzs@theworld.com Sat, 12 March 2022 07:23 UTC
Return-Path: <bzs@theworld.com>
X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118E53A129C for <hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 23:23:50 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.908
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1kwg82HOByrs for <hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 23:23:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls6.std.com [192.74.137.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73CA03A10C5 for <hrpc@irtf.org>; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 23:23:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 22C7NHX6017824; Sat, 12 Mar 2022 02:23:20 -0500
Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 22C7NC5P016452; Sat, 12 Mar 2022 02:23:12 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <25132.19040.388723.228805@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 02:23:12 -0500
From: bzs@theworld.com
To: hrpc@irtf.org
In-Reply-To: <1bf024c5-9044-f806-9ce9-7a3377045f48@lear.ch>
References: <1779273019.188450.1647022617139@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <AF3A93BB-04A7-4E5F-B88A-CD441369874E@nohats.ca> <1bf024c5-9044-f806-9ce9-7a3377045f48@lear.ch>
X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 27.2 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hrpc/_Je3G7HhlLnixTwri5jcnIbG104>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Censorship
X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: hrpc discussion list <hrpc.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/hrpc>, <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/hrpc/>
List-Post: <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc>, <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 07:23:50 -0000
Since the 1970s I would demonstrate the net (ARPA, inter) to someone and they would first be amazed and then invariably ask: So, who is in charge of this thing? In the mind's eye it seems like someone or some identifiable organization must be in charge of such awesome power. I take a deep breath and say: It's complicated, how much time do you have? That said the very idea of "cutting off" a nation may only exist in that mind's eye. We may be debating the merits of a fiction, much like how many angels can dance on a pin head. Depending on organization and determination a nation can cut itself off from the rest of the world. Russia and China in particular have striven to make this possible by limiting transit to state-controlled agencies which one assumes could be shut down with a government-initiated order. There are no doubt other such nations, not my point to be exhaustive. The US for example probably cannot cut itself off, or not without some vast effort. It's too distributed and transit is managed by many private, non-governmental parties. That said, many talk of such a sanction, cutting a nation off from the internet, as "weaponizing" the internet. I would argue a good topic for a RG is whether or not the net has already been weaponized? To that end I'll suggest there is positive and negative weaponization. 1. Positive - weaponizing traffic such as through strategic and tactical use of malware, ransomware, disinformation, etc. 2. Negative - blocking traffic associated with an entity. One might have some effect with attempting to do #2, cutting off the traffic of a nation like Russia. But #1 is much like terminating someone's cell phone service on the assumption that they would be unable to ever make a phone call again. Nonsense. However #1 has been presented as the justification for attempting #2. All that said I do appreciate the symbolic value of Ukraine's request, even if it can't be perfectly implemented. Note that just about all the sanctions levied against Russia in response to their invasion of Ukraine are very "leaky". Russian oil etc. will be sold, the transactions will be paid for without access to SWIFT, etc. Hence, making the best the enemy of the good I would argue is a terrible and naive debating point. We can't do #2 perfectly so let's not try at all. No reasonable person expects perfect compliance for any sanction. They might reasonably expect a unified statement be made. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
- [hrpc] Censorship Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship S Moonesamy
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship avri
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Stephen Farrell
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Stephen Farrell
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Stephen Farrell
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Jouris
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Jens Finkhaeuser
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Paul Wouters
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship bzs
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Jouris
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship farzaneh badii
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Paul Wouters
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Paul Wouters
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship bzs
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship bzs
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Jens Finkhaeuser
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship S Moonesamy
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Andrew Sullivan
- [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association (was Re: Censo… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association (was Re: C… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Jens Finkhaeuser
- Re: [hrpc] ***SPAM**** Re: Censorship Stephen Farrell
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship bzs
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [hrpc] ***SPAM**** Re: Censorship Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] ***SPAM**** Re: Censorship Bill Woodcock
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] ***SPAM**** Re: Censorship Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] ***SPAM**** Re: Censorship Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship farzaneh badii
- Re: [hrpc] ***SPAM**** Re: Censorship Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [hrpc] ***SPAM**** Re: Censorship Mallory Knodel
- Re: [hrpc] ***SPAM**** Re: Censorship Melinda Shore
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Stephen Farrell
- Re: [hrpc] ***SPAM**** Re: Censorship Eliot Lear
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Niels ten Oever
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship farzaneh badii
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Desiree Miloshevic
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship S Moonesamy
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Desiree Miloshevic
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship S Moonesamy
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [hrpc] Censorship S Moonesamy
- Re: [hrpc] RIPE Cooperation Working Group Remote … Alexandre Petrescu