Re: [hrpc] Censorship

Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> Fri, 11 March 2022 09:59 UTC

Return-Path: <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC563A0E12 for <hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 01:59:44 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.108
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cWelNQ3XctQB for <hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 01:59:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mx3.open-xchange.com (mx3.open-xchange.com [87.191.57.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8390A3A0E0D for <hrpc@irtf.org>; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 01:59:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from imap.open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx3.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49D5A6A0F2; Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:59:36 +0100 (CET)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1646992776; bh=pYuh/7XmZgRhnQ59vk1yAQmHjA+OaFYNiL9CInwewdU=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=ahcJAPQQ9I+EsIRAdDRZWaRVriqiO1j6b1WS/n2fzGXl+pcZQoxE8+0AGKvPKL4++ Ry8/owsGJdo7llvhBSKyd77Mj5/46/dTTscOYFJQ4gTIXxynaWvfZ2zBZP6oOVxHuV jjPVQH04X4qHtjJ0wkzhS6ap74gF0or8HJ6ccX/l/oGLdHCDR4gXAPRuxk+GNGFO5C T1QAOOE/ukkR0MnKsMHZy3IJ2/cpnbHhl/GPtx7VaEV9/AQawj1vDfjy7raiX0L3aB nCFrR546JgFnnpTk9pzDj4SqpPmv6fh5czrILi96ULWrrpFEf5DtcxvbO0ClNzg0qT jBdfZmypDmRPw==
Received: from appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com ([10.20.28.82]) by imap.open-xchange.com with ESMTPSA id x8i2EIgdK2KTXwAA3c6Kzw (envelope-from <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>); Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:59:36 +0100
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:59:36 +0100
From: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
To: "woody@pch.net" <woody@pch.net>
Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>
Message-ID: <254407218.184957.1646992776229@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com>
In-Reply-To: <AFDE14D7-A5A1-4009-9E8D-C77D4984EDDA@pch.net>
References: <669686052.184329.1646989079672@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <AFDE14D7-A5A1-4009-9E8D-C77D4984EDDA@pch.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Priority: 3
Importance: Normal
X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev9
X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite
Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hrpc/eAdazKxDOHAnFSAaB9Dr3V50H0A>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Censorship
X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: hrpc discussion list <hrpc.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/hrpc>, <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/hrpc/>
List-Post: <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc>, <mailto:hrpc-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:59:44 -0000


> Il 11/03/2022 10:38 Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net> ha scritto:
> 
>  
> > On Mar 11, 2022, at 9:57 AM, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> > I think that this call for a global, multistakeholder process to block access to Russian military and news websites
> 
> I encourage you to all read it for yourselves, because, as one of the authors and one of the signatories, that’s not what we said. 

Indeed people should read it, that's why it was linked.

Now, thanks for your reply - the document itself calls for a public discussion, though it does not specify where. I am afraid that most of the points you raise could be off topic for this group, but if the chairs think differently, I am happy to continue the discussion in detail here. Or, I am happy to join the public discussion wherever the signatories want it to happen.

The only point that IMHO is in topic for this group is that if all Internet protocols and services were designed in the way we advise in draft-guidelines, then the sanctions proposed by the document would be technically impossible; that seemed to me like something that we should discuss.

Perhaps we should recognize in draft-guidelines that, after all, censorship is sometimes desirable and there should be technical and policy hooks to implement it; so protocol designers should rather think at how to address this need while preventing such practices from becoming overbroad. I would be much in favour of this, as I do think that censorship is sometimes desirable, including in this case; but this did not seem to be the consensus of this group (and of PEARG) in the past.

-- vb.