Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community
John Curran <jcurran@istaff.org> Thu, 24 July 2014 23:23 UTC
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From: John Curran <jcurran@istaff.org>
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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 16:52:17 -0400
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References: <A193D048-2B67-469A-93BA-C61BB362DA75@vigilsec.com> <53CD1E8A.1060804@acm.org> <FA4238C4-ADDC-435F-9591-E3B074C2F6F6@vigilsec.com> <53CD2300.5050307@acm.org> <20140721143105.GH16966@mx1.yitter.info> <53CD291E.1020801@acm.org> <9045EC0A-E123-4CDC-B87F-5BC32C644C85@istaff.org> <53CD57E8.4000909@acm.org> <B7163126-31B6-4CC6-A711-F225051C294A@istaff.org> <53CD8F41.9060909@gih.com> <53CD939D.5020001@cisco.com> <9DE8F705-9748-407D-8E77-7B787ACD9873@gmail.com> <53CE4B39.1090202@acm.org> <53D016B6.2020000@gih.com> <53D01E6B.8020606@gmail.com> <53D025F3.5050708@acm.org> <53D02828.1030805@gmail.com> <53D02D53.6070501@acm.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20140724012237.0ce22978@resistor.net> <9DBA0ECE-D26D-463F-858A-B990B68BDDD1@istaff.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20140724084607.0bb21040@elandnews.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/internetgovtech/ywjKHeDu1NDG0wc8_UATL-ndFII
Cc: internetgovtech@iab.org, Avri Doria <avri@acm.org>
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community
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On Jul 24, 2014, at 1:08 PM, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote: > At 07:16 24-07-2014, John Curran wrote: >> You seem to believe that the IETF does not make "policy" for identifiers, >> but in fact, IANA registries are specifically required to have policies >> (see RFC 5226, "Guidelines for Writing an IANA Considerations Section in >> RFCs") so that the IANA knows what exactly to do in administration. > > My choice of words was incorrect. You explained it better in the paragraph quoted below. Coolness. >> Now it is true that these policies are generally technical in nature and >> tend to avoid "public policy" positions, but that is not a hard requirement >> for either IETF protocols or the associated registries. For example, it >> is possible for the IETF to define a protocol (e.g. an enhancement to DNS) >> whereby the protocol itself has some embedded rules for certain identifiers >> (e.g. the string "curran" shall always return empty set on any query...) > > Ok. i.e. technical registry policy is part of protocol specification; the IETF can indeed make a mess of either, but is inclined to try and make it so the resulting protocol & registry useful for the Internet. >> It's worth encouraging the IETF to work on predominantly technical issues, >> and to delegate the public policy issues that come with general purpose >> registries to bodies which are supported by the affected community, but >> at the end of the day, that is nothing more than a polite suggestion to the >> IETF, and may or may not be followed. If the IETF were to make a serious >> misstep, then it runs the risk of parties going elsewhere to work on their >> protocol standard needs, and that's likely a reasonable deterrent with a >> natural counterbalance. > > Yes. > > The problem is that it is not always clear at the time the decision was taken whether the misstep is serious. A single misstep is unlikely to cause folks to go to another venue for their Internet standards development; it would probably take a pattern of decisions which impact others without reasonable opportunity for input to cause such an outcome. This is very unlikely given the open nature of IETF standards development, but does highlight the need for the various organizations (IETF, ICANN, RIRs) to keep each other apprised of any policy or standards development that may be of cross interest. This has worked very well between the RIRs and the IETF, okay with the RIRs and ICANN from what I can tell (and I do not know how well the IETF/ICANN communication in this area has worked.) > In addition, there are a handful of people who would bother to raise any objection if something is considered as a misstep as: > > (a) The person is not making or losing money because of the decision; or > > (b) The person will be labelled as querulous. > > (c) It is bad for the person's career. And such folks are free to write Internet Drafts which describe the problem (as they see it) with a given protocol or registry requirement, and participate in the IETF process to get things changed to something more pleasing. If their arguments have merit, they are likely to be picked up and advanced by others via the process, and if not, then the asserted misstep is actually a non-issue. In any case, this is all handled via the existing IETF processes for standards and registry policy development; there is no evidence of any need for new or additional accountability mechanisms for these IETF processes, particularly to the extent that the IETF work predominantly covers technical matters rather than "public policy" issues. That aligns well with the IANA Stewardship transition proposal development effort, which is not scoped to include accountability mechanisms for "how relevant policies are created, nor the relevant structures in which they are created." FYI, /John Disclaimer: My views alone.
- [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meeting … Russ Housley
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Russ Housley
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Avri Doria
- [Internetgovtech] Cross community (was: Re: ICANN… John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community John Curran
- [Internetgovtech] off topic: labels (was Re: Docu… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] off topic: labels (was Re: … Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Eliot Lear
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community John Curran
- [Internetgovtech] Policy aspects (was: Cross comm… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Policy aspects (was: Cross … John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Documents from the ICG Meet… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community JFC Morfin
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Eliot Lear
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Russ Housley
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Avri Doria
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community John Curran
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community S Moonesamy
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Steve Crocker
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Steve Crocker
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Eric Burger
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [Internetgovtech] Cross community Jari Arkko