'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing participation (was Re: Remote participation fees)
Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> Wed, 25 February 2015 14:11 UTC
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Subject: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing participation (was Re: Remote participation fees)
From: Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>
In-Reply-To: <287EAD95-42D4-449C-8A7C-E8B3A14C8C21@nominum.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:10:56 -0500
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References: <CAL0qLwZk=k-CWLte_ChK9f1kzLwMOTRyi7AwFa8fLjBsextBcA@mail.gmail.com> <6025.1423672358@sandelman.ca> <CAL0qLwYtE618sA99hgXP-5wk+BYdcXLbiZqd_36OreYQ1LB7hQ@mail.gmail.com> <54DBD71C.20101@joelhalpern.com> <26803.1423772214@sandelman.ca> <tsla90ikh85.fsf@mit.edu> <37661D4B-1842-4890-88FB-2A7B13CDC884@nominum.com> <CABmDk8m1KuSs8os9V7fcYOJC2O4yMb6dRFer+nEPBTTSHtey9Q@mail.gmail.com> <31891031-4628-49CD-B66C-38A3BD787B70@trammell.ch> <54DE7F09.8030500@gmail.com> <C5FC0DB6-82F8-4C38-ABFD-D5D9A6E65933@isoc.org.ec> <54DE90C6.6030609@gmail.com> <E39AF4E0-58AB-4249-8A37-3D1CD2D5A691@gmail.com> <54DE9844.1010807@gmail.com> <61FBB27B-4EF3-40A0-8981-00EB89698295@isoc.org.ec> <B90F5E29-06C5-41D1-9F31-1BE42382995F@gmail.com> <CABmDk8=YPZ1W2tTOqP23U2PFVLoDh-3+wwmcA8mpta-Y05op2A@mail.gmail.com> <54DFBAF6.30409@cs.tcd.ie> <m2h9uokmij.wl%randy@psg.com> <CE39F90A45FF0C49A1EA229FC9899B0525F9E295@USCLES544.agna.amgreetings.com> <1A71F670-BACB-485F-8F06-93720563CB9B@kitterman.com> <CAKHUC zwdzsnK H KGcR_-sxvJa1V6Ky9RXJdF179r6gRPWmAayVA@mail.gmail.com> <5D2D7FD3-B9C6-4BD3-BBEE-B2354EFC9996@nominum.com> <CAKHUCzxrLKNSTMYyt1BGO22MbsKtU2NfDvyLEpTZDnudaqgP=w@mail.gmail.com> <10863B07-6E63-470E-A9D8-67FA37A2097C@standardstrack.com> <287EAD95-42D4-449C-8A7C-E8B3A14C8C21@nominum.com>
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Mea culpa! My fault for not being articulate. I was responding to the discussion thread, and happened to chose this one to staple the reply to. I in no way meant to infer that Ted (or Dave or anyone else) was advocating that the IETF should be excluding people. In this case, the impression (which Ted pointed out to me) was that I was saying that he wanted to exclude people based on ability to pay. Ted and I discussed this off-list, and we are in violent agreement. I did not think he was advocating for that, and I do not want anyone to advocate for that. Moving forward, what I was hoping to avoid was for people to think that because the IETF conference fees defer the costs of operating the IETF (the meeting itself, the secretariat, and a portion of the RFC Editor), that we have to try to squeeze every penny from all sources. That is not necessarily a bad mindset to have: we should be striving to be independent on the largesse of the Internet Society and their contributors if we can manage it. That is not an infinite pot of cash, and no one wants to be beholden to a single funding source. However, what I wanted to get out to the community is the message that the Internet Society believes deeply in expanding access to the IETF and the IETF process. If charging for remote access inhibits participation (the unfortunate ‘paywall’ comment), then I would have no problem at all suggesting the IETF (IAOC in specific) ask the Internet Society to fund remote participation. I think the Board (speaking as an individual, NOT in my role as an Internet Society Trustee) would treat such a request sympathetically. I can see this could be a dynamic situation. I can envision a time when we as the IETF are truly successful and develop fantastic real-time communication protocols that are easy to deploy, cost almost nothing, and are secure. At that point, one would *hope* in-person IETF meetings become a relic of history. Maybe we would meet once per year or every other year to reminisce about how the only way to get work done was to spend thousands of dollars of cash per year and an uncountable amount of cost for travel time to physically meet in the same location. How 20th Century! At that point, I would expect surpluses from meeting fees would be nonexistent, and we would need to figure alternate means of funding. However, that day seems to be far enough away that charging for remote participation should be a remote possibility for the foreseeable future. > On Feb 24, 2015, at 9:24 PM, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> wrote: > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 8:32 PM, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com> wrote: >> The last thing we need as we are just beginning to have success reaching out beyond North American, European, Japanese, S. Korean, and Australian mid-size to large corporations is to toss up a paywall, some as much as a month’s salary or more, for the ‘privilege’ of contributing to the IETF. > > You know, it's really frustrating when you participate in a discussion, try to contribute helpfully, and then essentially get accused of being a blithering idiot by someone who didn't bother to consider the possibility that you might not be. I'm sure you've had that experience too. Heck, I've been the one who assumed the other person was an idiot too, so I can relate. > > Anyway, if you think I was proposing a paywall, please go back and re-read what I actually wrote, and the rest of the discussion that followed, with the presumption in mind that I did _not_ mean to propose any such thing (because I didn't!), and see if the discussion still works, or if you find something I or someone else said that contradicts that assumption. > > Thanks. >
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- some minor bits Eric Burger
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Nico Williams
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Phillip Hallam-Baker
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Allison Mankin
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Loa Andersson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Crocker
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Mary Barnes
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Mary Barnes
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Joel Halpern
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Michael StJohns
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Russ Housley
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Joel Halpern
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Russ Housley
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Stewart Bryant
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
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- about remote attendance and hallway discussions Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Melinda Shore
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: about remote attendance and hallway discussio… Mary Barnes
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY John C Klensin
- Changing culture [was Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomC… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Mary Barnes
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Brian Trammell
- Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 10 --… Brian E Carpenter
- Appealing WG chair selections [Re: Updating BCP 1… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… info@isoc.org.ec
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Lixia Zhang
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Melinda Shore
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Lixia Zhang
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Larry Masinter
- Re: Community and hall conversations Ted Lemon
- Community and hall conversations Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… info@isoc.org.ec
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Yoav Nir
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ray Pelletier
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Christer Holmberg
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote participation fees Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… James Gannon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Sam Hartman
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Allison Mankin
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY John C Klensin
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Remote participation fees Eric Burger
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Yoav Nir
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Remote participation fees Tim Chown
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing par… Eric Burger
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Ted Lemon
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing the w… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Yoav Nir
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Alia Atlas
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Mary Barnes
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Nico Williams
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- RE: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Christer Holmberg
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Alia Atlas
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Mary Barnes
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Stephen Farrell
- Re: sweets to the sweet, was 'Paywall, ' IETF sel… John Levine
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… l.wood
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Randy Bush
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… joel jaeggli
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.