Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing participation (was Re: Remote participation fees)
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sun, 01 March 2015 13:44 UTC
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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 08:43:51 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Pranesh Prakash <pranesh@cis-india.org>
Subject: Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing participation (was Re: Remote participation fees)
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--On Sunday, March 01, 2015 07:20 +0530 Pranesh Prakash <pranesh@cis-india.org> wrote: >>> It seems like a fiction because it is a fiction. >... >> Please be careful about over-generalizing. > > The negation of "all IETF participants are individuals" is > "not all IETF participants are individuals". > > Where is the generalization? The implication of "it is a fiction" is that the statement is not partially true, but untrue. And it is falsified by the presence of a single person who participates as an individual. There are such people regardless of how you define "participates". I dislike the form of Nico's statement that triggered your comment ("...but all IETF participants are individuals", but it is true regardless of one's definition of "participates" and "individual" (see below) because no one is taken seriously in the IETF if they respond to an issue or initiate a conversation with "BigCompany believes...". In a way, that is a disadvantage because, when someone is actually advocating a company or other organizational position --and I have no doubt that it happens-- I'd rather the community be fully informed about that connection. However, the culture generally don't allow such statements and very few people make them. Randy's comment about the filling of rice bowls is relevant to that part of the issue. --On Sunday, March 01, 2015 07:43 +0530 Pranesh Prakash <pranesh@cis-india.org> wrote: > Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> [2015-02-28 21:07:56 > -0500]: >> So, if you prefer to say that I'm still not acting "in my >> personal capacity", very well; but I'd like to know what the >> difference is (in operationalized terms, please). > > As you seem to have noted, I believe funding to take part in > IETF proceedings (and physical meetings) is the key. > > Not because it "influences" the views you put forward at the > IETF. (It may or may not do so.) > But because it enables you to participate more steadily in the > IETF than someone who is not similarly funded. That ability > to participate has all manners of implications, including the > ability to be chair of WGs, etc. Often it does. Often it doesn't. Certainly it is easier to participate steadily if one has a regular and guaranteed source of support. For a number of reasons, that has led in recent years to an increase in the fraction of participants who are dedicated to standards in their day jobs rather than having primary research, design, development, implementation, or operations roles. I personally think that is bad, but it isn't because of who is paying the bills. Speaking personally, I've had, not only WG Chair roles, but have been an IESG and IAB member when I had no corporate or other external support for IETF work. I have no such support now, so you can assume that I'm responding to your notes only because I think it is important (I assure you it is not because I'm suffering from an excess of spare time). We have, by the way, had people who are funded by their organizations to participate in IETF stand up and say things like "our products do X, but I think our experience with that approach indicates that is dumb, so the IETF should standardize Y instead". I've seen similar statements in SDOs in which people actually represent organizations, but such positions are then typically a huge corporate deal, with a perceived need to inform customers that the company believes it is shipping a broken product -- where people are even nominally speaking as individuals rather than on behalf of companies, it gets a lot easier. As Andrew partially points out, even among those with organizational support, we've seen a very large range of models from "organization allows the work but won't support it and will require the participant to take umpaid leave while doing it", to "organization supports the work as a public good but has no particular positions", to "organization thinks it is sending people to advocate for its positions". I've talked with and observed people whose organizations are happy to have them participate in IETF and to fund meeting attendance, but on condition that the person involved _never_ take on a document editor, WG Chair, or other "leadership" role (usually because of fear that doing so would interfere with the day job) -- the exact opposite of your idea that organizational support makes it easier to take such positions. My objection to your generalizations is that it lumps those categories (and others) together and thereby loses a lot of information. We also, I think, disagree: I think the key issues really are who is influencing whom, and why, and on whose behalf and agenda the work is being done and statements made. I think that many factors, including the "enables.. more steadily" (or with less pain) one you identify are making the IETF review and decision-making processes less healthy than they used to be. I think when, for whatever reasons, a very significant fraction of our leadership is sufficiently supported by organizational resources that they lose sight of the implications of increasing costs (money or time), vacation destinations, etc., to those with less lavish support or more need to justify support on a meeting by meeting basis to skeptical managers, it lowers IETF technical diversity and, often, quality of results. This would all be nit-picking, except that the tensions those different positions and support models allow are really critical to effective functioning of the IETF. Generalization about who is or is not an individual or about the support being more important than the positions taken distract from whatever efforts might be focused on those more important problems. best, john
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- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Mary Barnes
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Stephen Farrell
- Re: sweets to the sweet, was 'Paywall, ' IETF sel… John Levine
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… l.wood
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Randy Bush
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… joel jaeggli
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.