Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work
Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> Thu, 26 February 2015 16:16 UTC
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 08:15:49 -0800
From: Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>
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Subject: Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work
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> On 2/26/2015 6:53 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > Actually, my experience is the opposite: mailing lists are > incredibly time consuming, because there are a few participants who > feel the need to repeat themselves over and over again in any given > discussion, and people aren't concise in their responses, nor > considerate of the burden their responses will impose on readers, so > there is a lot of reading, much of which is completely redundant. On 2/26/2015 7:15 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > If you "try to monitor" these working groups, it sounds like you > aren't an active participant. The meetings are supposed to be > minuted, so you ought to be able to monitor them by reading the > minutes. > > Do you think we should optimize working groups for getting work done, > or for being monitored? Folks, The above two comments capture essential views shared by many, namely that mailing lists are too inefficient and noisy for doing serious work and that less-active participants aren't useful or that they are even generally problematic. Certainly the gist of both comments have been uttered many times over the years, by many people. And indeed there is an understandable basis for both points, and of course, some legitimacy. Mailing lists are unparalleled in their ability to support open participation: * Anyone with an email account can participate, and at their own schedule. * The asynchrony also can permit thoughtful consideration of ideas that real-time simply cannot. * Email is good for posting proposals, because of the thoughtful, focused review it permits. But they also suck for /discussion/ of deep issues. The inherently slow (and even cumbersome) interactions get in the way of constructively conducting protracted and/or complicated discussion. Real-time voice/video (f2f or teleconferenced) is vastly better for anything that looks like a protracted 'negotiation' or exploration of a difficult topic -- that is, for problem-solving.[1] And there often are mailing list participants who are especially noisy. In general, they are more subject to moderation during a real-time session. However there are two essential flaws with the resulting bias towards real-time -- and especially f2f. * Real-time -- and especially f2f -- is exclusionary. It significantly restricts who can participate. * Less-active participants occasionally offer insight and suggestions that the more-active participants have missed. They also provide a wider base of support for post-approval deployment and use. The formal means of resolving these tradeoffs is /supposed/ to be that we always MUST rely on the mailing list for documenting proposed choices and documenting rough consensus. This permits /everyone/ to comment. * The formal IETF model says that real-time is essentially an efficiency hack for getting foundational convergence on understanding and choice, BUT NOT FOR FORMAL DECISION-MAKING. Design teams were an explicit construct introduced in the IETF about 20 years ago, to note the benefits of small-group efficiencies that can complement the full-group formalities.[2] Unfortunately, IETF culture has shifted towards dismissing folk who are less active, increasing the bias towards more narrow and/or complex design thinking. And decreasing the breadth of community understanding and support. The enthusiasm of an active core is essential. But so it the contribution and support of a much broader community. This is the essential distinguishing factor, between the original development culture in the IETF, versus other, classic standards bodies. d/ [1] http://www.ietf.org/wg/agenda-minutes-procedures.html and Chapanis, A.,"Interactive Human Communication," Scientific American, vol. 232, pp. 36-49, March 1975. The Chapanis study observed that a real-time voice channel was the most important for problem-solving. [2] I think that RFC 1603 was the first documentation of IETF design teams, capturing a practice of self-organizing core teams, that had emerged in the IETF; as I recall that bit of the document produced some controversy, specifically because they DTs are exclusionary. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
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- Changing culture [was Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomC… Brian E Carpenter
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
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- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Michael Richardson
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
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- Re: Remote participation fees Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
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- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
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- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Alia Atlas
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Mary Barnes
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Nico Williams
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- RE: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Christer Holmberg
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Alia Atlas
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Scott O. Bradner
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Mary Barnes
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Stephen Farrell
- Re: sweets to the sweet, was 'Paywall, ' IETF sel… John Levine
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… l.wood
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Randy Bush
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… joel jaeggli
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.