Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work
Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> Thu, 05 March 2015 07:48 UTC
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 08:47:58 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Subject: Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work
References: <CAL0qLwZk=k-CWLte_ChK9f1kzLwMOTRyi7AwFa8fLjBsextBcA@mail.gmail.com> <54EEFCFB.7080107@cisco.com> <047F946E-3041-4510-8F78-D8D743C4FEED@nominum.com> <939B49536ECD5BFA17B5E5C4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <48DFF1A2-9BD0-4E08-B44A-704D5DCC278E@nominum.com> <54EF3644.7090808@joelhalpern.com> <02ED4331-9441-484C-96A6-70352C42ABBC@nominum.com> <54EF426A.9070706@joelhalpern.com> <31CF2C53-8168-4B2F-9E14-76FB44854813@nominum.com> <54EF7229.1030301@queuefull.net> <CAK3OfOh6BMP40y0H5Yny+n-8B8ayzgq4BeT2MmfF2XuxBBLk5A@mail.gmail.com> <54EF772C.5030309@queuefull.net> <519F10F3-0B24-4085-9294-8FFA10632CB3@lucidvision.com> <6BE1D8A6-C954-49C9-B0B8-D2D52DE212DC@lucidvision.com> <54EF9080.9050500@joelhalpern.com> <54EF9A36.4020905@labn.net> <528C98F9-5D16-4B5F-9B11-886C91B5FE59@lucidvision.com> <00b101d0529f$0c6ea580$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <54F4D4EC.4040600@cisco.com> <CABCOCHRqwtZU0R1ad=SDfcwixwR75RZ0g8Bw=t0BHbmHkSVkjQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On 05/03/2015 05:41, Andy Bierman wrote: > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote: >> On 27/02/2015 16:03, t.p. wrote: > .... > >>> I see 'netmod' as a poster child for this with its issue list, state >>> machine for issues and so on. Even though I was tracking the list when >>> the 'Ynn' issue list was created, I don't know where its state machine >>> came from. In recent minutes, I don't know what >>> " AB: I am not sure YANG 1.0 specifies C1 explicitly somewhere. >>> JS: Does A3 not follow from A2? >>> KW: A3 is more a corollary of A2. >>> AB: The high-level problem is how to create and maintain the >>> information needed to achieve A4. " >>> >>> is about; a brief search of mailing list and I-Ds gave me no explanation >>> for A2 to C1. >> And what about an email to the NETMOD mailing list, asking this question? >> How is this any different than meeting minutes on a physical meeting, on >> which you would have a question? >> > > IMO Juergen does a very good job of recording the minutes of every > NETMOD interim. > Here is the header from those minutes (that were taken out of context): > > * YANG 1.1 Conformance > ** https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bjorklund-yang-conformance-problem-00 > > This clearly indicates that the notes are about the draft identified above. > These identifiers A1, C2, etc. are in the draft. > > The NETMOD and NETCONF WGs have been extra careful about > getting verification on the WG mailing list before proceeding with proposed > changes that originate in VI meetings. +100 Regards, Benoit > > >> Regards, Benoit > > Andy > > >>> >>> And if a different group of engineers works on different topics, then >>> they will likely, in the absence of any guidance, use different >>> technology, different terminology and end up with a way of working that >>> is as alien to the first group. >>> >>> As I said, changing the way we work. >>> >>> Tom Petch >>> </tp> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --Tom >>> >>> >>>> Lou >>>> >>>>> If you want a real example of how this can actually work, watch Anees >>> explain how Open Config has done this with just weekly phone calls and a >>> bunch of people typing on keyboards. They've done this in less than a >>> year, and have rough consensus and (production) running code. This is >>> how the IETF used to operate: people got together, hacked code and got >>> things working. The goal was not having meetings, but producing code >>> with rough consensus. >>>>> >>> https://code.facebook.com/posts/1421954598097990/networking-scale-recap >>>>> --Tom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Yours, >>>>>> Joel >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2/26/15 4:21 PM, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote: >>>>>>>> On Feb 26, 2015:4:16 PM, at 4:16 PM, Brian E Carpenter >>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> On 27/02/2015 09:08, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Feb 26, 2015:2:42 PM, at 2:42 PM, Benson Schliesser >>> <bensons@queuefull.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Nico Williams wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but a record that a concall or other interim meeting took >>> place, >>>>>>>>>>> and who attended, even if there are incomplete or missing >>> minutes, is >>>>>>>>>>> important for IPR reasons. Ensuring that such meetings are >>> NOTE WELL >>>>>>>>>>> meetings is (should be) a priority, and that includes ensuring >>> that a >>>>>>>>>>> record of that much exists. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ideally the concalls and other interims would be recorded. >>>>>>>>>> I agree completely. My point was that meeting records (including >>> minutes) will inevitably be incomplete, or possibly inaccurate, and that >>> relying on the mailing list as an authoritative record is more >>> effective. >>>>>>>>>> Of course it is disappointing that we can't meaningfully >>> translate voice discussions into text, in the minutes or in mailing list >>> threads. If there were some magic tool e.g. that took better minutes >>> then I'd be happy to use it. But otherwise, I think we just have to >>> trust chairs to manage WG collaboration in whatever way is most >>> effective for their WG's collaborators. >>>>>>>>> The first step is to agree that an A/V recording is record >>> enough. >>>>>>>> It absolutely is not enough. Please see my previous message, >>>>>>>> and the relevant rules in RFC 2418. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>> You are missing my point. RFC or not, the IETF needs to evolve. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Tom >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps having meetbot/txt notes that at a min include >>> actions/decisions like we do in the issue tracker we've used for >>> NETMOD's Yang 1.1's issues. >>>>>>>>> --Tom >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This will inevitably be suboptimal for some part of the >>> population. (For instance, I've never been able to find an interim >>> meeting time that fits the schedules of all attendees.) But if they (we) >>> always revert to the mailing list for decision making then I suspect our >>> work can remain open and transparent. >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> -Benson >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> . >>> > . >
- A Eulogy For A Friend - Ping Pan Thomas D. Nadeau
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- Re: about remote attendance and hallway discussio… Mary Barnes
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- Changing culture [was Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomC… Brian E Carpenter
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- Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 10 --… Brian E Carpenter
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- Community and hall conversations Ted Lemon
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ray Pelletier
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
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- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Michael Richardson
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing the w… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Yoav Nir
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Alia Atlas
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Mary Barnes
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Nico Williams
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- RE: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Christer Holmberg
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Alia Atlas
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Mary Barnes
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Stephen Farrell
- Re: sweets to the sweet, was 'Paywall, ' IETF sel… John Levine
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… l.wood
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Randy Bush
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… joel jaeggli
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.