Re: Old directions in social media.
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Tue, 05 January 2021 23:47 UTC
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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 18:47:16 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
cc: IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Old directions in social media.
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--On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 21:43 +0000 Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: > > Hi Kyle, > > On 05/01/2021 17:46, Kyle Rose wrote: >> Again, no one in any WG is required to interact with GitHub >> to contribute. > > I don't think the above is true in practice, at least in some > cases. In one case where I'm implementing a draft I've found > the github issue discussion effectively excludes me from > really being part of the discussion. > > Github issue discussions do work fine for many people, and > could work fine for me some other time (e.g. if I and others > involved were in similar TZs and online at similar times), > but my experience is that even with the best will in the > world, the split-discussion or exclusionary effect PHB > complained of can and does happen. > > I don't think this is only because the github->mail tooling > is worse than useless (for Rich: few mins ago, having been > offline for an hour or two, I got 40 mails for one repo to > which I'm subscribed;-), I think there are problems with > timezones too (hence this mail). > > I don't have a good solution for that. Equally, I'm not > asking that we stop with git or github - I just think we > need to do more work to better take into account that the > github issue discussion workflow is not everyone's workflow. Right. And, while both have been said a little differently before (in this threat and in the discussion leading to RFC 8875, let me add two comments to Stephen's: (1) At least for someone with a moderate level of skill (I can't speak for those with high levels of skill) active github discussions, especially tracker-type ones, are far easier to follow if one is doing so more or less continuously than they are for someone who is looking in much less frequently. For better or worse, when email shifts from fewer messages in which people are listening carefully to each other to rapid turnarounds of often short and repetitive messages with signs of increasing tempers and frustration, email gets very hard to follow too. However the email usually still seems easier to get the gist of what is going on by sampling a stream of messages than trying to decode the history of github discussions and changes. I don't know whether 24 messages on this theme in a tad over six hours is an illustration of anything. (2) There is a risk in the IETF process (and many like it) of reaching consensus by some core group (who basically agree within the group) driving everyone else off. A group that agrees on everything but small details, and maybe on those, can be extremely efficient. After all, controversies take time to resolve and the resolution process may not be efficient at all. But one that gets that efficiency by excluding (even if completely unintentionally or by choices of style, tools, and meetings and real-time communications over working asynchronously is often not, over time, doing the IETF or the Internet any favors. john
- Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Vittorio Bertola
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- RE: Old directions in social media. Larry Masinter
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kurt Andersen (IETF)
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. - Issue track… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. - Issue track… Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Fred Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Stephen Farrell
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. avri doria
- Re: Old directions in social media. John C Klensin
- Re: Old directions in social media. John C Klensin
- Re: Old directions in social media. Fred Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Mark Nottingham
- Re: Old directions in social media. John C Klensin
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Wes Hardaker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Richardson
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- RE: Old directions in social media. Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- RE: Old directions in social media. Larry Masinter
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Vittorio Bertola
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel Halpern Direct
- RE: Old directions in social media. ned+ietf
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Tim Bray
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Richardson
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Carsten Bormann
- Re: Old directions in social media. Stephen Farrell
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Eliot Lear
- Re: Old directions in social media. Carsten Bormann
- Re: Old directions in social media. Carsten Bormann
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Old directions in social media. Wes Hardaker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. tom petch
- RE: Old directions in social media. ned+ietf
- Re: Old directions in social media. Nick Hilliard
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Richardson
- Re: Old directions in social media. John C Klensin
- Re: Old directions in social media. Eliot Lear
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Lloyd W