Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-two-maturity-levels
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Fri, 02 September 2011 20:19 UTC
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Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 16:20:19 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Subject: Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-two-maturity-levels
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--On Tuesday, August 30, 2011 23:17 +0300 Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote: > I have reviewed the discussion from the last call on this > document. > > My conclusion as the sponsoring AD is that we have consensus > to move forward. There was clearly a constituency who believed > this is a good (albeit small) step forward. A number of other > people did not care so much; did not believe there was either > harm or benefit. I also saw a couple of opposing opinions, > though some of them were more about a desire to do something > else than specific objections about this proposal. I will be > recommending that the IESG approve the draft. Jari, Like Scott, I wonder if there is some misunderstanding here. Part of the problem is the way that this draft was developed and the discussion has been handled, despite your heroic efforts. For example: (1) If someone says "we should be looking in this different direction instead", the response has been "irrelevant to consideration to this proposal, so it should go forward". The irrelevancy is debatable, but that may be another issue. (2) If someone says "the proposal claims to solve problem X, but there is no evidence for that", the assertion about what problems are being solved is removed, but there is no substantive change to the draft. (3) If someone says "this solves no problem", the response has been that things have been broken for years and therefore this proposal should be approved. (The difficulty with that logic should be clear.) Sometimes that has been accompanied by a claim that it is the only proposal on the table and should therefore be adopted (even though that statement isn't true and, true or not, would never even be considered if we were considering a protocol specification). One of the co-authors has recently argued for a very high standard of compelling necessity to make changes to important processes or related documents, but that criterion obviously does not apply to this document. (4) There have been a few arguments made that making this sort of change --without compelling justification and without evidence that it would accomplish anything-- would actually be harmful. There has been no substantive response to those arguments. In normal Last Calls, such comments are known as "unresolved issues" and the sponsoring AD does not move the document forward until they are addressed (or even dismissed) in some substantive way. (5) This is probably off-topic unless someone decides to appeal, but, to a certain extent, the processing of this document points out a far more significant problem with the handling of process change suggestions in the IETF. The IESG holds a discussion. An IESG member prepares a draft. An IESG member (the same one or a different one - it makes a difference, but not much) decides what other process change proposals can be considered (either at the same time or otherwise). While the IESG would normally decide that anything that has produced this much controversy needs a Working Group to consider alternatives and get a real consensus determination, the IESG decides that no WG will be considered for this work (the claim that previous WGs addressed to process issues have been a problem --one with which I personally agree-- may not be relevant unless the IESG is ready to consider other review and mechanisms). The IESG gets to pick and choose which arguments for and against the proposal "count" -- normal, but see (4) above and the many "solves no problem" comments. And then the IESG decides to advance the document. (6) Unfortunately, although the document has improved significantly since -00 --by removing material for which there was little or no support and some question about relevance and by removing unsupportable claims-- the basic pattern outlined in (5) has been perceived as inevitable, i.e., that this AD-produced draft, produces in response to a discussion and conclusion already reached by the IESG, was going to go through because the IESG had prejudged the ultimate outcome before the draft was written. Whether that perception is correct or not, it leads all but the most persistent members of the community to tune out and stop making comments, either early on or after several rounds. I am not going to take a position about consensus among some silent majority because I simply don't know how those who are not speaking up feel, but I think the community should exercise caution about the possibility of consensus-by-exhaustion in any discussion that has dragged on as long as this document and its predecessors have been debated on the IETF list. regards, john
- draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels SM
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Rosen
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Julian Reschke
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Russ Housley
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels James M. Polk
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels James M. Polk
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Russ Housley
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Barry Leiba
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Keith Moore
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John Levine
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Ross Callon
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Bert (IETF) Wijnen
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Russ Housley
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Julian Reschke
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John Leslie
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Michael Richardson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Michael Richardson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Andrew Sullivan
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels RJ Atkinson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Barry Leiba
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Martin Rex
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Keith Moore
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Ted Hardie
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hain
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Michael Richardson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John Leslie
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hain
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hain
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Michael Richardson
- two independent implementations (Re: draft-housle… Lars Eggert
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Lars Eggert
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Lars Eggert
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels ned+ietf
- Re: two independent implementations (Re: draft-ho… James M. Polk
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hain
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: two independent implementations (Re: draft-ho… James M. Polk
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels David Kessens
- Re: two independent implementations John Leslie
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels SM
- RE: two independent implementations Tony Hain
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Bob Braden
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Yoav Nir
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hain
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Bob Braden
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Ralph Droms
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Ralph Droms
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels ned+ietf
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel Jaeggli
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Russ Housley
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel M. Halpern
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels RJ Atkinson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hansen
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John Leslie
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels ned+ietf
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Doug Barton
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels SM
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Martin Rex
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Mark Atwood
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Russ Housley
- New version of NroffEdit released for IETF80 Stefan Santesson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel M. Halpern
- Re: New version of NroffEdit released for IETF80 Stefan Santesson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel M. Halpern
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Bob Hinden
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Jari Arkko
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Robert Sparks
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Keith Moore
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Chris Newman
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Pete Resnick
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel M. Halpern
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John Leslie
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels RJ Atkinson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel M. Halpern
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-two-… Jari Arkko
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… SM
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Frank Ellermann
- RE: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Ross Callon
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- RE: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- RE: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… James M. Polk
- Other proposals (Was: :Re: Conclusion of the last… Jari Arkko
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Jari Arkko
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Barry Leiba
- RE: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- Re: Other proposals (Was: :Re: Conclusion of the … SM
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Russ Housley
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hector Santos
- RE: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Ross Callon
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Ted Hardie
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last call … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Julian Reschke
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Keith Moore
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Dave Cridland
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Who raised the bar? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Cullen Jennings
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Ted Hardie
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Ted Hardie
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Fred Baker
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John Leslie
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… t.petch
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Hector Santos
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… JP Vasseur
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… JP Vasseur
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… SM
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Thomas Narten
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Barry Leiba
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Russ Housley
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Sam Hartman
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Eric Burger
- RFC3844 and IETF Core Values Hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Jari Arkko
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Russ Housley
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Sam Hartman
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Martin Rex
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Douglas Otis
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Brian E Carpenter