Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Wed, 03 August 2011 13:36 UTC
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Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 09:36:37 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels
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References: <20110728121904.2D22AD7A76F@newdev.eecs.harvard.edu> <12B69DB8-AFDD-4C40-BC9A-0A8158D9F7C0@nostrum.com> <0D43A851-C57B-484F-ADDD-BBD7A412689C@standardstrack.com> <4E343791.7040401@qualcomm.com> <4E3439CE.4030509@joelhalpern.com> <4E36C3E3.6050500@stpeter.im> <E1090BD02A7BD74AA756B06E@PST.JCK.COM> <4E389500.90309@joelhalpern.com>
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Cc: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>, Bradner Scott <sob@harvard.edu>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
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--On Tuesday, August 02, 2011 20:23 -0400 "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > With mild apologies, I have retained John's text below > because, even though I come to a different conclusion, I > thought it important to retain for now. If folks choose to > follow up on this, significant trimming is recommended. Trimmed :-) > John, as far as I can tell there are three problems which > various folks have wanted this document or its predecessor to > address: > 1) That the bar for PS is too high > 2) That not enough documents are advancing up the standards > track > 3) That what we do and what we say we do do not match. I agree with your summary so far. > Clearly, these problems are related. That is less clear to me. While I think that (1) is at least part of the cause of (2), both of the following seem almost equally plausible: (i) At the time the current model was assembled, IETF participation was much more heavily weighted toward researchers and others who had the flexibility to be able to concentrate on getting things right with multiple iterations and gradual advancement. As the Internet has evolved toward an environment in which short-term product needs dominate, a larger percentage of IETF participants have needs to get a reasonable spec agreed on so it can be implemented and deployed, but little need to refine and revise unless flaws in the specs cause serious and user- or operator- visible interoperability problems. (ii) At the time the current model was assembled, IETF specifications tended to be for relatively simple protocols with either few options or orthogonal ones without complex interactions. Today, we are seeing far more specs with optional variations, options that interact in complex ways, profiles for different purposes, etc. We have whole working groups whose purpose it is to sort out the operational implications of protocols developed in other WGs (and sometimes still under development. In that environment, having maturity categories that require an entire complex protocol, regardless of profiles or sets of options, to be classified into a small range of mutually-exclusive sets just makes no sense almost independent of how many categories we have. Whether we can remove obstacles or not, we don't have the right incentives in place to get people to do things that make no sense to them (or to their sponsors). Indeed, _increasing_ the number of categories might help: for example, perhaps we need a "base spec and 'mandatory to implement' pieces are fine, but we don't know about some of the option sets" category. If some combination of those hypotheses is actually the driving force behind few specs getting past Proposed, then nothing we do about getting things into Proposed more easily will make any difference. Nor is fussing with the number of maturity levels likely to have any useful effect. In addition, (3) appears to me almost completely unconnected with the other two. Sure, we don't use annual review and never have. And it is definitely unattractive to have rules around that we don't follow. I would be a lot happier if we removed or clarified _every_ rule in our specs that we don't follow (or if we followed more of them). But I haven't heard even a claim that removing a rule that we haven't followed from 2026 would make it easier to get documents approved as Proposed or that it would increase, even slightly, the number of documents that are advanced. > We could try to adopt a change that would address all three. > I dobut we would accomplish anything. ok > As far as I can tell, this document sensible tries to address > one of these, namely item 3. It tries to align what we > document with what we do. In order to do so, it also makes a > change which may help item 2. It may not. But there is no connection at all. If we wanted to address item 3, then all it would take is a _really_ short RFC that updated 2026 and said "that provision has never been used and is now eliminated". As I indicated in my long note, I can't believe there would be any controversy about such a document other than complaints that we were wasting time that could be better spent in other ways. Might it help with item 2? While I can't _prove_ it would not, I don't recall seeing a single argument, either in the document drafts or on the list, that justifies even a strong hypothesis that the existence of a rule that we have never followed has discouraged even a single specification. If one thought there was an interaction of that sort, it would make far more sense logically to try applying the rule to see what effect that would actually have. I'm not suggesting that, if only because I wonder whether moving RFC 3261, RFC 2616, or RFC 2460 to Historic on the grounds of non-advancement would make us look the most ridiculous. > Now, you can argue that it is taking up energy that should go > to item 1. That is not unreasonable. Except that I consider > all the proposals I have seen for item 1 to be failures. They > fail in different ways, but they all have appeared to me to be > bad ideas. Well, that is interesting. I'd be delighted to discuss some of those proposals with you, but I don't believe that the community has discussed any proposals that are intended to make improvements on item 1 in at least the last half-dozen years. Some attempts to have such discussions have been ruled out of order on the grounds that they address a different topic than draft-housley-two-maturity-levels. Ones that merely would have required the IESG to conduct a small-scale experiment have been ignored. Suggestions about others have been dealt with by fairly clear statements that the IESG would not consider them as individual submissions and that a WG would never be approved. That may made all of them failures, but, if it does, there are, IMO, some much more fundamental problems with our processes than, e.g., whether the annual review rule is being used. But, more important, I'm not making the argument that this is "taking up energy that should go to item 1" (even though I believe that to be true). I think this document should stand (or not) on its own content and what it proposes. But it only solves item 3 while making much more significant and noticeable changes --look at its title for starters-- in the area of item 2... with no real justification for believing that it will have any positive effect on the issue you identify as item 2 whatsoever. I also believe that, if it is approved, it will be used as a further excuse to not take up any proposals that might actually solve blocking problems. But I consider that an almost-separate issue as well because, if this would really be effective against _either_ issue 1 or 2, that would be worth the price. > As such, we can either do nothing, or take this step that in > my personal opinion addresses item 3, might turn out to help > item 2, and does not hurt item 1. See above. I think that making a very significant change in the standards process -- changing the number of maturity levels and criteria for them certainly is such a change-- requires more justification for believing it might be effective than "might turn out to help". The latter looks too much like decision-making by throwing pasta at the wall... and using only a single strand of pasta. In addition, while I think it unlikely, there is a rational argument (outlined in my earlier note and notes by others) for believing that lowering the number of maturity levels and trying to accomplish maturity level changes without new documents will increase the pressure to get Proposed Standards just right. Pressure to get Proposed Standards just right appears to be one of the primary causes of the high threshold for those documents. There is actually a stronger argument that this might make item 1 worse than there is that it will make item 2 better. > I believe I understand your point below that without > understanding how we ought to address problem 1, it is hard to > be confident we are not making it worse rather than better. Thanks, john
- draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels SM
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Rosen
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Julian Reschke
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Russ Housley
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels James M. Polk
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels James M. Polk
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Russ Housley
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Barry Leiba
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Keith Moore
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John Levine
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Ross Callon
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Bert (IETF) Wijnen
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Russ Housley
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Julian Reschke
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John Leslie
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Michael Richardson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Michael Richardson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Andrew Sullivan
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels RJ Atkinson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Barry Leiba
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Martin Rex
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Keith Moore
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Ted Hardie
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hain
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Michael Richardson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John Leslie
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hain
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hain
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Michael Richardson
- two independent implementations (Re: draft-housle… Lars Eggert
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Lars Eggert
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Lars Eggert
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels ned+ietf
- Re: two independent implementations (Re: draft-ho… James M. Polk
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hain
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: two independent implementations (Re: draft-ho… James M. Polk
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels David Kessens
- Re: two independent implementations John Leslie
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels SM
- RE: two independent implementations Tony Hain
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Bob Braden
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Yoav Nir
- RE: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hain
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Bob Braden
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Ralph Droms
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Ralph Droms
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels ned+ietf
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel Jaeggli
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Russ Housley
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel M. Halpern
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels RJ Atkinson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Tony Hansen
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John Leslie
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels ned+ietf
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Doug Barton
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels SM
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Martin Rex
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Mark Atwood
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Russ Housley
- New version of NroffEdit released for IETF80 Stefan Santesson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel M. Halpern
- Re: New version of NroffEdit released for IETF80 Stefan Santesson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel M. Halpern
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Dave CROCKER
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Bob Hinden
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Jari Arkko
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O. Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Robert Sparks
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Keith Moore
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Chris Newman
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Pete Resnick
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel M. Halpern
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John Leslie
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels RJ Atkinson
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Eric Burger
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Scott O Bradner
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels Joel M. Halpern
- Re: draft-housley-two-maturity-levels John C Klensin
- Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-two-… Jari Arkko
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… SM
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Frank Ellermann
- RE: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Ross Callon
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- RE: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- RE: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… James M. Polk
- Other proposals (Was: :Re: Conclusion of the last… Jari Arkko
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Jari Arkko
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Barry Leiba
- RE: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- Re: Other proposals (Was: :Re: Conclusion of the … SM
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Russ Housley
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hector Santos
- RE: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Ross Callon
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Ted Hardie
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last call … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Julian Reschke
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Keith Moore
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Dave Cridland
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Who raised the bar? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Cullen Jennings
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Ted Hardie
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Ted Hardie
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Fred Baker
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John Leslie
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… t.petch
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… ned+ietf
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… Hector Santos
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… JP Vasseur
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… JP Vasseur
- Re: Who raised the bar? [Conclusion of the last c… SM
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Thomas Narten
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Barry Leiba
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Russ Housley
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Sam Hartman
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Eric Burger
- RFC3844 and IETF Core Values Hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Jari Arkko
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Russ Housley
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… John C Klensin
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hector
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Sam Hartman
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Keith Moore
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Martin Rex
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Douglas Otis
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: Conclusion of the last call on draft-housley-… Brian E Carpenter