Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work

Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> Thu, 26 February 2015 15:20 UTC

Return-Path: <akatlas@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCD31A038C for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:20:06 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -101.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Js_kJer7-4F3 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:19:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ob0-x233.google.com (mail-ob0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C48E1A0282 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:19:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-ob0-f179.google.com with SMTP id wp4so11475343obc.10 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:19:53 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=AVWna/gWQTkv2gRyPTLyApO3dmW2fMMv1FtLb7muCgY=; b=eRw7ptYhnZURP1883DS7XrBJ8JZ6SfuSbxeHoXQNFX9BJH5+wDYgaqAMNcH/n7PRTQ ZZZLIrzvHq2di+kuiFy8w2kuraRtJHuQRzAKAOxpG6wJjvbYFIgSlGDM4tLw8DfuRbPz vwnxoV4NmaegDqv/8x6uwZRMeuzUA717qxv4My+qtd3kPNYEJSwavWf+Or5qm6ukfBEx XWezaK723iP8ZJk2B7kbwU2CqzIFQ6JCS8zjELPy1GEBqd2qjap+mTgdfSJrI3aHEvbB aHBUA8a2G/xuxlW2LqaeYukmQGnxv49zhDyn3A0y/bR6x4DZpr/kQmCnGNwcve8I5qyF emGg==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.60.74.41 with SMTP id q9mr6468040oev.61.1424963992469; Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:19:52 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.60.97.135 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:19:52 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <54EF3644.7090808@joelhalpern.com>
References: <CAL0qLwZk=k-CWLte_ChK9f1kzLwMOTRyi7AwFa8fLjBsextBcA@mail.gmail.com> <6025.1423672358@sandelman.ca> <CAL0qLwYtE618sA99hgXP-5wk+BYdcXLbiZqd_36OreYQ1LB7hQ@mail.gmail.com> <732CCD31-0F13-472F-9825-C5F5D650C41B@vigilsec.com> <2457EE06-4960-40B5-AF10-2EDFBF18B2B6@nominum.com> <7C601AA4-55C4-43FE-B2FE-1D22BD73F166@vigilsec.com> <CAKHUCzyJ62hVyJVVLuL5-nXx_i5VO2cW3LA6R1sdZbDHxoY_Tw@mail.gmail.com> <43ADF7ED-6A42-4097-8FFA-5DA0FC21D07A@vigilsec.com> <CAKHUCzyfB+GhNqmDhrzki4tVn0faMLyt_cqgeHFcQL2b5pkkAQ@mail.gmail.com> <54DE3E1C.6060105@gmail.com> <007301d04927$64890d40$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <54EDA697.5070107@cisco.com> <01c701d050f6$c80fcd00$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <CAMm+LwgzXg+QM29ygS0Bv+HOo2Gd-hPByXYz2aVu-V4b=Jak+Q@mail.gmail.com> <54EEFCFB.7080107@cisco.com> <047F946E-3041-4510-8F78-D8D743C4FEED@nominum.com> <939B49536ECD5BFA17B5E5C4@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <48DFF1A2-9BD0-4E08-B44A-704D5DCC278E@nominum.com> <54EF3644.7090808@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:19:52 -0500
Message-ID: <CAG4d1rfP1zJd1s8SFgeVUQ-Lj8jr_S6BkXVd1guNhgk86n5+4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135e95a96e2f3050fff486f
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/Rr3aARmaQJ3PPVxqbxlGiIltH38>
Cc: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, ietf <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:20:07 -0000

Interim conference calls shouldn't take the place of conversations on the
mailing list, but that is obvious.
I agree about the issues around time-zones and scheduling.   However, high
bandwidth conversations
frequently happen better in voice as does presenting and clarifying
questions or concerns.

On the one hand, it would be good in many cases if the IETF standardization
process could go faster.
On the other, that does leave some people needing to contribute only
sometimes.

I would strongly urge pushing conversations on the list more.  One of the
advantages of the interim
conference calls is that those who have attended tend to have the current
state swapped in and be
able to reply more rapidly - at least in theory.

Regards,
Alia

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>;
wrote:

> I need to agree with John here.  There are several WGs I try to monitor
> that started having frequent interim conference calls.  There is no way I
> can reliably make time for that.  The advantage of email is that I can fit
> it in around the work I need to do (including reading it during corporate
> conference calls.)  In one case I have had to dramatically reduce my
> effective participation in the WG because most of the work moved to the
> conference calls.
>
> One of the other standards bodies I have had to work with did all of its
> work in weekly conference calls.  This made it next to impossible for me to
> contribute to most of the topics, as I could not make most of the calls.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
>
> On 2/26/15 9:53 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
>
>> On Feb 26, 2015, at 9:37 AM, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>; wrote:
>>
>>> The more we shift
>>> from doing almost all of our work on mailing lists to doing a
>>> significant proportion of it in high-frequency interim meetings,
>>> the more we tend to narrow effective participation to
>>> vendor-supported people with dedicated time in convenient (for
>>> the WG majority) time zones and reduce some of the diversity we
>>> have claimed is important.
>>>
>>
>> Actually, my experience is the opposite: mailing lists are incredibly
>> time consuming, because there are a few participants who feel the need to
>> repeat themselves over and over again in any given discussion, and people
>> aren't concise in their responses, nor considerate of the burden their
>> responses will impose on readers, so there is a lot of reading, much of
>> which is completely redundant.   Being restricted to the low shared
>> bandwidth of voice in an online meeting substantially mitigates that, if
>> the working group chair is doing a good job of disciplining the discussion.
>>
>> There is a reason why we do f2f meetings, and it's not because we like
>> the cookies (although we do).
>>
>>
>>
>