Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems - need a different invitation letter
"Ayala, Alejandro (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <alejandro.ayala@nokia.com> Thu, 18 October 2018 15:24 UTC
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From: "Ayala, Alejandro (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <alejandro.ayala@nokia.com>
To: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
CC: "102attendees@ietf.org" <102attendees@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems - need a different invitation letter
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 15:24:42 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/102attendees/4Cy0WMOqqXrg-gmquvAb3W4LR94>
Subject: Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems - need a different invitation letter
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I guess when you reading/writing internet drafts you start over analysing every word. Alex From: 102attendees <102attendees-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Eric Gray Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:12 AM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>; Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> Cc: 102attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems - need a different invitation letter Jakob, Sure it does. Treat the phrase “for MICE” as a qualifying parenthetical, and what you have is “Foreigners entering Thailand without the purposes of being employed or working for income, but being event attendants …” The key phrasing (some explicit, some implicit) is whether or not you are coming to Thailand with the express purpose of gaining employment or working in Thailand. So, if you’re coming to attend a meeting and are NOT doing so to gain employment (from a Thai employer being implied) or to work (in Thailand is again implied), then you’re a tourist. Because these are implied, it is not quite cut and dried, but it is fairly obvious. The question gets a little muddier if you’re a consultant being paid explicitly by some employer to attend this meeting. If your employer is Thai, then you’re in a gray area so dark it might as well be black. I plan to attend, but I work in the US, even though I spent close to 6 months out of the year in places outside the US. My employer is technically a US employer, though the corporate headquarters are actually here in Stockholm, where I have been since early August. And still, I work in the US. Where you actually work is determined by where you would pay taxes for the income you earn assuming that location has income taxes. If you intend to pay Thai taxes, and expect to be exempt from paying taxes in the location where you normally work, then you are arguably expecting to be “working” in Thailand. Where you work and where you are currently located are not necessarily the same thing. What I see going on in this discussion is a number of people trying to “borrow trouble” for themselves and (here’s the part that I find truly disturbing) for everyone else. Please just stop. -- Eric From: 102attendees <102attendees-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:102attendees-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 10:04 AM To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> Cc: lorenzo=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:lorenzo=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; 102attendees@ietf.org<mailto:102attendees@ietf.org>; Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com<mailto:msj@nthpermutation.com>> Subject: Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems - need a different invitation letter Read the text yourself. Nowhere does it say or imply “Thai employer” or getting the income from a Thai national. Thanks, Jakob. On Oct 18, 2018, at 5:36 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote: [citation needed] On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:35 PM Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com<mailto:jheitz@cisco.com>> wrote: Note that whether the employer is Thai or not makes no difference. Regards, Jakob. On Oct 18, 2018, at 5:22 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote: Most of us who are traveling to Thailand and need to go through customs and immigration are being paid by an employer not in Thailand to go to Thailand. On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:20 PM Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com<mailto:jheitz@cisco.com>> wrote: Most of us are “employed or working for income” while attending, not on vacation or time off. Someone is paying for our time to be there. Regards, Jakob. On Oct 18, 2018, at 3:50 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:lorenzo=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 7:49 AM Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com<mailto:msj@nthpermutation.com>> wrote: > Foreigners entering Thailand for MICE without the purposes of being > employed or working for income, but being event attendants will be > regarded as tourists under the definition of Tourism Authority of > Thailand Act of B.E. 2522 (1979). FWIW, this page<http://www.thaiembassy.org/helsinki/en/customize/28150-ConferenceBusiness-meetingSeminar.html> on the Finnish embassy says something similar: "Foreign nationals wishing to enter the Kingdom of Thailand to attend a MICE event, which is endorsed or sponsored by TCEB, without being employed or working for income, are regarded as tourists". It lists the TCEB website as being www.tceb.or.th<http://www.tceb.or.th>, and IETF 103 is listed on www.tceb.or.th<http://www.tceb.or..th> as a conference here<http://www.tceb.or.th/en/event-calendars/article/1>. The TCEB page on visas is here<http://www.tceb.or.th/en/article/visa-requirements>. IANAL. YMMV. Void where prohibited. This message does not constitute, and must not be construed as, advice of any sort. This message is provided "as is" without warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including, but not limited to, the implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. This message does not affect your statutory rights. And so on. _______________________________________________ 102attendees mailing list 102attendees@ietf.org<mailto:102attendees@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/102attendees _______________________________________________ 102attendees mailing list 102attendees@ietf.org<mailto:102attendees@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/102attendees
- [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Wang Guilin
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Philip Bodenheimer
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Fred Baker
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Alexa Morris
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [102attendees] IETF 103: Registration Issue? Ole Jacobsen
- [102attendees] Visa problems - need a different i… Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Ori Finkelman
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Ori Finkelman
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Artyom Gavrichenkov
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Mehmet Ersue
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Artyom Gavrichenkov
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Mehmet Ersue
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Niel Harper
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Ben Campbell
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Niel Harper
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… John C Klensin
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Artyom Gavrichenkov
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Philip Prindeville
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Fred Baker
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Mike Bishop
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Michael StJohns
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Michael StJohns
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… George Michaelson
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Tobias Fiebig
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Jiankang Yao
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Jeff Haas
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Tobias Fiebig
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Tobias Fiebig
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Tobias Fiebig
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Tobias Fiebig
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Roni Even
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Tobias Fiebig
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Tobias Fiebig
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Balazs Lengyel
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Tobias Fiebig
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Roni Even
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Tobias Fiebig
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… John C Klensin
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Cj Aronson
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Artyom Gavrichenkov
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Jim Reid
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Artyom Gavrichenkov
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Michael StJohns
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Ilpo Järvinen
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Artyom Gavrichenkov
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Artyom Gavrichenkov
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Tobias Fiebig
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Robert Wilton
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Christian Hopps
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Lawrence M
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Heinrich Singh
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Lawrence M
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Reshad Rahman (rrahman)
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Christian Hopps
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… John C Klensin
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Philip Prindeville
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Bob Hinden
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Jiankang Yao
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Ludwig Seitz
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Antoni Przygienda
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Dean Bogdanovic
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [102attendees] Visa problems - need a differe… Wang Guilin
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Ted Lemon
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Ted Lemon
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Robert Wilton
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Antoni Przygienda
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Jared Mauch
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Eric Gray
- Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems -… Ayala, Alejandro (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)