Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems - need a different invitation letter

"Ayala, Alejandro (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <alejandro.ayala@nokia.com> Thu, 18 October 2018 15:24 UTC

Return-Path: <alejandro.ayala@nokia.com>
X-Original-To: 102attendees@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: 102attendees@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFAC112D4EB for <102attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:24:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.964
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.964 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.064, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j02m2cYCjXWq for <102attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:24:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db5eur01on071f.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe02::71f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8A391277C8 for <102attendees@ietf.org>; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:24:45 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Pifc6te4EW4+7uqYytISoasP6Xta5QhztylysWjUkpo=; b=XUNDyBO8hvQ15TrIlVI9m/He49oYbcpgI/FF8CnjKrVY76hpaq2vQh7MIpWMvfX6NBU90DiMYpzi3K7Yf1qhvA7gUGp2F3nQa9zphx9kzH7XovqvS58gVNZD8eJUZAHk6f9IIkBtFe6iW2YjpT5wkZ0Ao1dzv51d/V6OJybvcTo=
Received: from DB3PR07MB0684.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.160.51.148) by DB3PR07MB0521.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.160.44.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1250.14; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 15:24:42 +0000
Received: from DB3PR07MB0684.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::199c:5d10:8572:7902]) by DB3PR07MB0684.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::199c:5d10:8572:7902%7]) with mapi id 15.20.1250.020; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 15:24:42 +0000
From: "Ayala, Alejandro (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <alejandro.ayala@nokia.com>
To: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>, "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
CC: "102attendees@ietf.org" <102attendees@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems - need a different invitation letter
Thread-Index: AQHURFdB3BV4JEWvsky3EUVTVyVafaTgZjOAgAAFiICAABOOAIAAm7oAgAEEvACAACy3gIBCy4QAgAAZP4CAAAB5gIAAA6YAgAAAFwCAABjXAIAAEtwAgAACmwA=
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 15:24:42 +0000
Message-ID: <DB3PR07MB0684220A2FA683BE0C3DE967F9F80@DB3PR07MB0684.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <alpine.OSX.2.01.1808291846180.5588@ole-pro-2.local> <163e477e-956b-c388-a062-115ad64629c2@gmail.com> <alpine.OSX.2.01.1808291954390.5588@ole-pro-2.local> <1762761125.28180.1535604751601@ichabod.co-bxl> <0DCD267A-8333-41D2-875B-F68051789BB8@gmail.com> <1725ef85-0763-85ca-7e31-bd251e4b4bac@ericsson.com> <20180904131753.wcqvts3d6nuyf56s@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <F5C76E02-3918-4525-9F5E-6EF95287D677@isoc.org> <C43F0F29-DB56-4723-976E-442177384EEC@nostrum.com> <AD352F893CC34984364088EE@PSB> <20180904191755.5gg56vmzkt7cbcxr@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CY4PR22MB0983CC2A54C8CF7CF733AB84DA020@CY4PR22MB0983.namprd22.prod.outlook.com> <48c29065c1f6498c88f6ac30715ee75f@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <55efde6f-39af-b7de-8676-612bea716e1d@nthpermutation.com> <CAKD1Yr1bK2WO75=XTQvTOT0TF8AS0=PDD9nUSNX2quGhJEkA1Q@mail.gmail.com> <C65D6EE8-7580-44B2-A66A-C6C331C044D8@cisco.com> <CAPt1N1mQPwZdqvcqTGyi+wLvxiMiCZcwxn3w=mbVygFGnZbiLQ@mail.gmail.com> <EAB56724-2564-4BF9-8968-11B066756288@cisco.com>, <CAPt1N1mKjOV1dGPOT1pEEyP-DRZGdPMVBEBC2y2XSEWDHBqPrg@mail.gmail.com> <996346BA-16B6-49FB-8E31-5A71EAF3130D@cisco.com> <CY4PR15MB1783C156B421A10631CF731997F80@CY4PR15MB1783.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR15MB1783C156B421A10631CF731997F80@CY4PR15MB1783.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=alejandro.ayala@nokia.com;
x-originating-ip: [135.245.20.9]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB3PR07MB0521; 6:/cpFmiLl/4/HWvrIhJkFlcu3zoj0A7vEFZnUU04iHK17QSyQO7kgogDQOpz8eleUarnzbF94IHmpCWyioU/AajS3HBuQ4U2W/CwgbNfnMS0w67XEhWrHhnHQcnNhQ3CEjJvddul8VfRhqFyvr0mvDBcB9mx2dQaTPCnPVcnlKz1cw9Hnh2q1yUb9A/wqMut/vcybwxHufdDhk8l3TKq43wwjf86dG42QsK/6MiZKKx3gbbv39nWJTQ9h0tuxogBWq3tXduUrFvhx3ePRg4IwE9vHqgU6NB2fZYb49OMCtMZWyc5PXD+8sTXveh1cDanudPEd+LGSUOu2dhxOffkX47iAbGTZTpK5pkW8ncMsUpgv8GixYk9GkbM67wawYf5HSF6JTLN7AtBoOURlZBLZWTR2GDtknMVb0oRaTCoSQ0UEd/cnae7xm9pgQgIXNvODN2/wtfxD1X8VVjlIGT7U9A==; 5:Ne41IqeMm7//8s/4zgy0sE1limLiVyUce3qW6XwfLh34Bu6Tu/dP1vloyUpSnGPx+tU7biR/pdA+oWM+YB+8hy14ld6ABJGRgZWrjlE4pBCYeGg5YTyHIIjzfpKRW6iOoYun6XFUSnDO+eEXnxuoGvwLXBFiM2ZKSp4bt+CdqEc=; 7:y4yluxYH8OO3ZP0fVGk46RXck25NhvqN4/ntWMJh0HQUPmQAM11ZmCySIDjc9li/o5VrmN6nVGbVdpAhFb6ZjAWmbken1GvzQR2i2xkxxPmMnF1sn0PMhBREY784SSIrvUtcWH3DHENDtV3l1wLleJS3XdyZegxDOv3XqNMLApghITHwmZhBSoVcQvrCcYRH8cPQ2iHjsxSAMQ76Bbnq2iUSR8e2LB1821czSCq6ERpMIA0OUy5wJn7TQNeqlg4N
x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS;
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f4dd1637-631d-4286-2e3d-08d6350dd3dd
x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(5600074)(711020)(4618075)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:DB3PR07MB0521;
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB3PR07MB0521:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <DB3PR07MB0521131DA327DF4E415A82E5F9F80@DB3PR07MB0521.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(95692535739014)(21748063052155)(28532068793085)(190501279198761)(227612066756510);
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(8211001083)(6040522)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(3231355)(11241501184)(806099)(944501410)(52105095)(3002001)(10201501046)(93006095)(93001095)(6055026)(149066)(150057)(6041310)(20161123562045)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123558120)(20161123564045)(20161123560045)(201708071742011)(7699051)(76991095); SRVR:DB3PR07MB0521; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB3PR07MB0521;
x-forefront-prvs: 08296C9B35
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(396003)(366004)(39860400002)(136003)(376002)(346002)(13624006)(199004)(189003)(4326008)(6246003)(6306002)(229853002)(6436002)(53386004)(55016002)(8936002)(74316002)(53936002)(68736007)(606006)(25786009)(8676002)(81166006)(81156014)(54896002)(9686003)(236005)(76176011)(7736002)(71190400001)(71200400001)(110136005)(966005)(99286004)(14454004)(7696005)(478600001)(97736004)(5660300001)(5250100002)(86362001)(2906002)(3846002)(6116002)(790700001)(7066003)(106356001)(26005)(186003)(102836004)(486006)(2900100001)(316002)(21615005)(53546011)(6506007)(93886005)(476003)(446003)(11346002)(14444005)(256004)(105586002)(33656002)(66066001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DB3PR07MB0521; H:DB3PR07MB0684.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nokia.com does not designate permitted sender hosts)
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: /vJZYdFIpIXY9VuPLQhucA5c4qoc1iMtlh6peFrnmcrBfdsxpF3KC5NkhS/B2wbjLaR/9m9qsgkqn5VBBG90iD3d+e6f3lLkIj3Al/s1RF44Y243kuLk+IG9XH/GElWPgsN/4wFrtJifcITTexroPEI2AOmTjtoV85NeVqvyptuwLP1YnlOCZmzEePUBNgLImClv4DJE2sFROqekShc46thCWwxrOXj46vM7/Bn8hUhk6Fw5Epe9Rw1HnpntFhxdjcLm5TyV+QJL6PPS9S2PXphUn8yez5jxpakDprUksOCqbMr8+9F9uPxQrCjYyHIB0MIK61/bzzMGhP3RsZpMujAbayRl4NedXm7cscxP7mqYS+Iyf8pFUJF/mSksbV2DRjiC10ceqQC7jyaOh+FA9Q==
spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99
spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB3PR07MB0684220A2FA683BE0C3DE967F9F80DB3PR07MB0684eurp_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f4dd1637-631d-4286-2e3d-08d6350dd3dd
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Oct 2018 15:24:42.4118 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB3PR07MB0521
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/102attendees/4Cy0WMOqqXrg-gmquvAb3W4LR94>
Subject: Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems - need a different invitation letter
X-BeenThere: 102attendees@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Mailing list of IETF 102 attendees that have opted in on this list <102attendees.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/102attendees>, <mailto:102attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/102attendees/>
List-Post: <mailto:102attendees@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:102attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/102attendees>, <mailto:102attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 15:24:49 -0000

I guess when you reading/writing internet drafts you start over analysing every word.

Alex

From: 102attendees <102attendees-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Eric Gray
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:12 AM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>; Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: 102attendees@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems - need a different invitation letter

Jakob,

                Sure it does.  Treat the phrase “for MICE” as a qualifying parenthetical, and what you have is “Foreigners entering Thailand without the purposes of being employed or working for income, but being event attendants …”

                The key phrasing (some explicit, some implicit) is whether or not you are coming to Thailand with the express purpose of gaining employment or working in Thailand.

                So, if you’re coming to attend a meeting and are NOT doing so to gain employment (from a Thai employer being implied) or to work (in Thailand is again implied), then you’re a tourist.

                Because these are implied, it is not quite cut and dried, but it is fairly obvious.

                The question gets a little muddier if you’re a consultant being paid explicitly by some employer to attend this meeting.  If your employer is Thai, then you’re in a gray area so dark it might as well be black.

                I plan to attend, but I work in the US, even though I spent close to 6 months out of the year in places outside the US.  My employer is technically a US employer, though the corporate headquarters are actually here in Stockholm, where I have been since early August.  And still, I work in the US.

                Where you actually work is determined by where you would pay taxes for the income you earn assuming that location has income taxes.  If you intend to pay Thai taxes, and expect to be exempt from paying taxes in the location where you normally work, then you are arguably expecting to be “working” in Thailand.

                Where you work and where you are currently located are not necessarily the same thing.

                What I see going on in this discussion is a number of people trying to “borrow trouble” for themselves and (here’s the part that I find truly disturbing) for everyone else.

                Please just stop.

--
Eric

From: 102attendees <102attendees-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:102attendees-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 10:04 AM
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>>
Cc: lorenzo=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:lorenzo=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; 102attendees@ietf.org<mailto:102attendees@ietf.org>; Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com<mailto:msj@nthpermutation.com>>
Subject: Re: [102attendees] [103attendees] Visa problems - need a different invitation letter

Read the text yourself. Nowhere does it say or imply “Thai employer” or getting the income from a Thai national.

Thanks,
Jakob.


On Oct 18, 2018, at 5:36 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
[citation needed]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:35 PM Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com<mailto:jheitz@cisco.com>> wrote:
Note that whether the employer is Thai or not makes no difference.
Regards,
Jakob.


On Oct 18, 2018, at 5:22 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> wrote:
Most of us who are traveling to Thailand and need to go through customs and immigration are being paid by an employer not in Thailand to go to Thailand.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:20 PM Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com<mailto:jheitz@cisco.com>> wrote:
Most of us are “employed or working for income” while attending, not on vacation or time off. Someone is paying for our time to be there.
Regards,
Jakob.


On Oct 18, 2018, at 3:50 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:lorenzo=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 7:49 AM Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com<mailto:msj@nthpermutation.com>> wrote:
> Foreigners entering Thailand for MICE without the purposes of being
> employed or working for income, but being event attendants will be
> regarded as tourists under the definition of Tourism Authority of
> Thailand Act of B.E. 2522 (1979).

FWIW, this page<http://www.thaiembassy.org/helsinki/en/customize/28150-ConferenceBusiness-meetingSeminar.html> on the Finnish embassy says something similar: "Foreign nationals wishing to enter the Kingdom of Thailand to attend a MICE event, which is endorsed or sponsored by TCEB, without being employed or working for income, are regarded as tourists". It lists the TCEB website as being www.tceb.or.th<http://www.tceb.or.th>, and IETF 103 is listed on www.tceb.or.th<http://www.tceb.or..th> as a conference here<http://www.tceb.or.th/en/event-calendars/article/1>. The TCEB page on visas is here<http://www.tceb.or.th/en/article/visa-requirements>.

IANAL. YMMV. Void where prohibited. This message does not constitute, and must not be construed as, advice of any sort. This message is provided "as is" without warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including, but not limited to, the implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. This message does not affect your statutory rights. And so on.
_______________________________________________
102attendees mailing list
102attendees@ietf.org<mailto:102attendees@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/102attendees
_______________________________________________
102attendees mailing list
102attendees@ietf.org<mailto:102attendees@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/102attendees