Re: [Add] meeting hum: should the IETF take up this work?
Eric Orth <ericorth@google.com> Wed, 31 July 2019 15:58 UTC
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From: Eric Orth <ericorth@google.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:58:42 -0400
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To: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>, "add@ietf.org" <add@ietf.org>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [Add] meeting hum: should the IETF take up this work?
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On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 11:26 AM Diego R. Lopez < diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com> wrote: > On 31/07/2019, 16:25, "Add on behalf of Eric Rescorla" < > add-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 2:49 PM Livingood, Jason < > Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > > On 7/25/19, 10:12 AM, "Add on behalf of Adam Roach" <add-bounces@ietf.org > on behalf of adam@nostrum.com> wrote: > > You can see, for example, Cloudflare's associated privacy > policy at > https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/commitment-to-privacy/privacy-policy/firefox/ > > [JL] This speaks to the DNS query/response. But with DoH, this is > contained inside of an HTTP envelope, so to speak, which has much more rich > tracking - noted at https://www.cloudflare.com/privacypolicy/ under > website visitors (which I presume applies to all HTTP transactions). > > > > No, this is not our understanding. Rather, the privacy policy for DoH > covers every aspect of DoH, including the HTTP portion. The Cloudflare > Privacy Policy is a separate policy for CF websites and does not govern the > resolver. > > > > > > So the confluence of DNS and HTTP here seems interesting to better > understand and document as TRR-style policies evolve. Since there is an > HTTP server involved in DoH, presumably all the normal HTTP log items are > seen & processed and can be logged, like user agent, cookies, and so on. > > > > Firefox doesn't send cookies for DoH. We do send User-Agent, and we could > look at removing that, but given TLS ClientHello fingerprinting, that's > probably not adding a huge amount of additional information. > Chrome has similar behavior. DoH requests do not send or accept cookies and are blocked from sharing sockets/connections/etc with any requests that do. Recent work has also minimized other standard headers, eg setting user-agent to simply "Chrome" and accept-language to "*". Similar privacy mitigations and considerations for DoH/DoT/etc may be useful to document in an Informational or BCP. Best if applications implementing these protocols make informed decisions around privacy practices. > > > -Ekr > > > > This implies the combination Firefox/Cloudflare does not pose a > significant privacy risk. Fair enough. But the general case of > whatever-the-app using a hardwired DOH resolver remains, much the same as > the archetypal coffeeshop resolver compared to well-behaved, > contract-bounded ISPs. > > > > -- > > "Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno" > > > > Dr Diego R. Lopez > > Telefonica I+D > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr2lopez/ > > > > e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com > > Tel: +34 913 129 041 > > Mobile: +34 682 051 091 > > ---------------------------------- > > > > > > > [JL] In addition, I suspect a concern (for the very high scale centralised > DoH platforms) is not just the per-user privacy policy but also what > aggregated business intelligence a global scale platform would be able to > develop (e.g. of a population of 500M users, how many have queried for *. > netflix.com in the past N hours, by country, ASN, user agent, etc.), > relative to competitors or potential competitors. So I suspect these > concerns may arise, at least for platforms of very high scale / > penetration. > > -- > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add > > > ------------------------------ > > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, > puede contener información privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso > exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el > destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilización, > divulgación y/o copia sin autorización puede estar prohibida en virtud de > la legislación vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos > que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma vía y proceda a su > destrucción. > > The information contained in this transmission is privileged and > confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or > entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or > copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received > this transmission in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the > sender that you have received this communication in error and then delete > it. > > Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinatário, > pode conter informação privilegiada ou confidencial e é para uso exclusivo > da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se não é vossa senhoria o destinatário > indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utilização, divulgação e/ou > cópia sem autorização pode estar proibida em virtude da legislação vigente. > Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique > imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destruição > -- > Add mailing list > Add@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add >
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- Re: [Add] meeting hum: should the IETF take up th… Diego R. Lopez
- Re: [Add] meeting hum: should the IETF take up th… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Add] meeting hum: should the IETF take up th… Eric Orth
- Re: [Add] meeting hum: should the IETF take up th… Diego R. Lopez
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- Re: [Add] [EXT] Re: meeting hum: should the IETF … Joe Abley
- Re: [Add] [EXT] Re: meeting hum: should the IETF … Ralf Weber
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- Re: [Add] point of deploying DoH in access networ… Joe Abley
- Re: [Add] [EXT] Re: meeting hum: should the IETF … Eric Orth
- Re: [Add] [EXT] Re: meeting hum: should the IETF … Christian Huitema
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