Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call of draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt
Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> Thu, 19 March 2015 13:40 UTC
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 14:40:37 +0100
From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, IETF Discussion List <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call of draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt
References: <5503914A.7060209@gmail.com> <5503BF22.5020902@gmail.com> <2AE2D092-C32A-46EB-88CA-71366965F4D7@cisco.com> <5505D873.1040203@gmail.com> <CAL0qLwbQf_2WUn8PrUXCMy_3w6tt+iJw0tyF=gUojA5fwRXJNg@mail.gmail.com> <550736E0.6080101@dcrocker.net> <20150316203250.GJ2179@mx1.yitter.info> <55073F22.6000606@dcrocker.net> <20150316204616.GK2179@mx1.yitter.info> <55074AC1.9080500@dcrocker.net> <20150316214620.GO2179@mx1.yitter.info> <550751AC.7090108@dcrocker.net> <55075EBA.4000905@gmail.com> <5509BB58.4060307@qti.qualcomm.com> <B714CBFE-5D3D-4293-91C2-534A3437EB24@piuha.net>
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Hi Jari, I've been following this discussion for some time, and while I agree that it is important to protect people from harassment, it is also important for the community to be able to hold decision makers accountable for their decisions. This draft puts too much power in the hands of people who are not appointed by the community. While I truly do understand the need to scale the function of the AD, this is a case where I believe the community expects them to take responsibility for excluding someone from some or all of our processes. I am happy for the ombudsman team to have responsibility for providing you guidance, but the decision to exclude someone or not should be exclusively in the hands of someone who cannot be recalled. To that end... On 3/19/15 11:03 AM, Jari Arkko wrote: > I wanted to recap where we are with respect to the topic > of incidents handled by the ombudsteam affecting roles > that people have in the IETF. > > First off, I think we have broad agreement that we need > to deal with this better than version -06 of the document > does, and that misbehaving leadership needs to be > removed. The debate has been about the specific > mechanics of doing that, and clearly -06 was not up > to the task, as well as leaving a bad impression. > I’m sorry. We are now in the process of seeing how to > correct that. > > I would like to get to the specific proposals. Sam > suggested one way of dealing with this, copied below. > > I personally like this text. There are some variations of > the general approach, I think Pete argued for a similar > treatment of WG chairs and nomcom-appointed > positions. I could live with that as well. > > However, there is clearly another class of approaches > to solving this. We could specify the mechanics of > ombudsteam initiating or running the recall process, > or providing the ombudsteam the authority to terminate > appointments. I think this type of an approach is also > possible, but would tie into our nomcom and recall > processes in a quite close manner. The details would > have to be specified, and of course, the resulting system > should still be workable, safe, etc. from overall IETF > perspective. Does anyone have a proposal in this > space, or believe we should take this path? > > Or are there other approaches not listed in this > e-mail? Yes. The change here would be that the lead ombudsman may recommend corrective action, but that person must do so to an area director who is in an appropriate position of authority to rectify the matter, up to and including excluding someone from an activity. In the case where an area director, IAB member, or IAOC member stands accused or has a conflict of interest, they must remove themselves from the proceedings. In this way, accountability to the community for the function is directly maintained. To be clear, this balances confidentiality against accountability, Both are important. Eliot
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins
- What is a "management position? [Last Call: <draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-ha… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnicke… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnicke… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: RFC2418bis (was - Re: What is a "management p… Dave Crocker
- RFC2418bis (was - Re: What is a "management posit… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Barry Leiba
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Sam Hartman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Pete Resnick
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Sam Hartman
- RE: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Christian Huitema
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Scott O. Bradner
- Sam's text and way forward on the last call of dr… Jari Arkko
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Michael StJohns
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Eliot Lear
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Jari Arkko
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Eliot Lear
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Pete Resnick
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… John C Klensin
- Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt… John C Klensin
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Ted Faber
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… George Michaelson
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Jari Arkko
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Nico Williams
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Nico Williams
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Sam Hartman
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Sam Hartman
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Michael StJohns
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… John Leslie
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Michael StJohns
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… James Woodyatt
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… James Woodyatt
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick