Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call of draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Tue, 24 March 2015 02:53 UTC
Return-Path: <nico@cryptonector.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFE11B2BDF; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 19:53:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.666
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ugmX50P7GFu1; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 19:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7621B2BE0; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 19:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F41177805B; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 19:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=wNd7YRQb5QG/M8 t5d7w5L5Fyskc=; b=MA5vGyI2GvoI3QbsssJheZHTpF2piuSenoxPO1fKo+a9Ec nH0jA0Atw6kRBHzNNEN1mrKLJ/jsPGaZaWcftGRl01GCArMFZXm54EbMrZoTEU6A 7baOQg0f6kCOaxUAF9E9nmKPBDK4CtDpLTJ6J3a8CBdvjKgmvkrODN33i/OvU=
Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C6229778057; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 19:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:52:56 -0500
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call of draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt
Message-ID: <20150324025254.GA6734@localhost>
References: <55074AC1.9080500@dcrocker.net> <20150316214620.GO2179@mx1.yitter.info> <550751AC.7090108@dcrocker.net> <55075EBA.4000905@gmail.com> <5509BB58.4060307@qti.qualcomm.com> <B714CBFE-5D3D-4293-91C2-534A3437EB24@piuha.net> <014401d0624e$5220d940$f6628bc0$@olddog.co.uk> <tsl619rd9t7.fsf@mit.edu> <CAKKJt-dW-sb1nvxoXDNJJmvVnieOVkcU0H6FG8JnMK6uFSnZmA@mail.gmail.com> <tslegof9nk7.fsf@mit.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <tslegof9nk7.fsf@mit.edu>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/86vQMZn4R_1T3k8gtyo7revikbw>
Cc: "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, IETF Discussion List <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 02:53:24 -0000
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 09:44:24PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > I understand that from the respondent's standpoint being able to trust > that you'll be given a fair hearing is also part of the process. > However, were I to be a respondent I'd be more worried about the fair > hearing from the folks who could ban me from the meeting than whether I > got removed from an I* position. We have to get fairness right for the > exclusions too. I think fairness for exclusions is much more important than for removals, for the following reasons: - Tolerating I* members who harass is much harder than tolerating any other participants who harass. The latter one might be able to ignore for the duration of the process, but the former, one might have to continue to interface with in order to do business. - I* members represent the IETF. Unacceptable behavior by them is therefore more harmful to the IETF than similar behavior from plain old participants. - I* members sign up for it with much more "oomph" (funding, time commitment, ...) than most other volunteers. I* members should get more training, they are fewer in number, talk to each other more, should be more aware, and have less in the way of acceptable excuses than non-managers. I* memberships come with prestige and some fame within and around the IETF. This is a valuable thing; abuse of it is all the more upsetting than mere boorsish behavior by anyone else might be. - Conversely, many participants may have had less training about harassment and so might get a pass once where a manager might not. Their actions and words are less disruptive, and so on. - Removal might not come with exclusion. Removal is more urgent when the issue is harassment by someone in a position of authority. Therefore the two remedies must be considered somewhat independently, and of the two I do think exclusion is potentially worse than removal, especially given the proposed confidentiality guarantees! - Due to the proposed confidentiality guarantees, an I* member could resign and not reveal to their employer why they resigned, making plausible excuses ("it was too tiring", "I got bored", "I want to focus on my day job more", ...). Whereas a non-manager who is suddenly unable to do their job will probably have a much harder time explaining the exclusion to their boss. At the very least we need to consider a simple process for temporarily replacing a WG's AD with another (ditto chairs). And when the Subject or Reporter are also I* members, then only prompt (for the duration of the investigation at least) removal seems desirable. Similarly, exclusion from physical meetings is more important than exclusion from mailing lists (and jabber). Similar reasoning leads me to support a mechanism for at-least-temporary-but-immediate exclusion from physical meetings. I think one would have to behave quite badly and publicly in order to merit immediate exclusion online. But if someone did, then it would be obvious for all to see. (Or if the harassment takes place continuously via off-list communication, well, it's really time to bring in law enforcement.) Online exclusion seems to be the remedy most in need of a fair process. Nico --
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins
- What is a "management position? [Last Call: <draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-ha… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnicke… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnicke… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: RFC2418bis (was - Re: What is a "management p… Dave Crocker
- RFC2418bis (was - Re: What is a "management posit… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Barry Leiba
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Sam Hartman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Pete Resnick
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Sam Hartman
- RE: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Christian Huitema
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Scott O. Bradner
- Sam's text and way forward on the last call of dr… Jari Arkko
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Michael StJohns
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Eliot Lear
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Jari Arkko
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Eliot Lear
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Pete Resnick
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… John C Klensin
- Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt… John C Klensin
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Ted Faber
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… George Michaelson
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Jari Arkko
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Nico Williams
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Nico Williams
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Sam Hartman
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Sam Hartman
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Michael StJohns
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… John Leslie
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Michael StJohns
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… James Woodyatt
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… James Woodyatt
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick