Sam's text and way forward on the last call of draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt
Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> Thu, 19 March 2015 10:03 UTC
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Subject: Sam's text and way forward on the last call of draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:03:37 +0000
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I wanted to recap where we are with respect to the topic of incidents handled by the ombudsteam affecting roles that people have in the IETF. First off, I think we have broad agreement that we need to deal with this better than version -06 of the document does, and that misbehaving leadership needs to be removed. The debate has been about the specific mechanics of doing that, and clearly -06 was not up to the task, as well as leaving a bad impression. I’m sorry. We are now in the process of seeing how to correct that. I would like to get to the specific proposals. Sam suggested one way of dealing with this, copied below. I personally like this text. There are some variations of the general approach, I think Pete argued for a similar treatment of WG chairs and nomcom-appointed positions. I could live with that as well. However, there is clearly another class of approaches to solving this. We could specify the mechanics of ombudsteam initiating or running the recall process, or providing the ombudsteam the authority to terminate appointments. I think this type of an approach is also possible, but would tie into our nomcom and recall processes in a quite close manner. The details would have to be specified, and of course, the resulting system should still be workable, safe, etc. from overall IETF perspective. Does anyone have a proposal in this space, or believe we should take this path? Or are there other approaches not listed in this e-mail? So at this point I would like to ask if people are comfortable with Sam’s proposal or if other proposals are forthcoming and/or people believe that another approach is needed. Concrete text proposals would be appreciated. Here’s Sam’s proposal: > I'd like to take a stab to see if I understand what we do have consensus > on: > > old: > (The Ombudsteam can not impose that a Respondent > who is in a IETF management position be removed from that > position. There are existing mechanisms within IETF process for > the removal of people from IETF management positions that may be > used as necessary.) > > new: > The Ombudsteam MAY ask a respondent to consider resigning from an IETF > management position. The Ombudsteam May remove a respondent from a > working group or document editor position. While this document does > not create additional procedures permitting a nomcom appointee be > removed, the Ombudsteam can exclude a respondent from meetings and > mailing lists and other activities, making it impossible for them to > carry out their appointed tasks. > > Rationale for the above: > > I think we should split handling of chairs and wg-level positions from nomcom stuff. > The discussion to date seems to have focused on nomcom-level > appointments, and we apparently don't have consensus to make changes to > that in this document. > However, I think we should carefully ask ourselves how we handle chair > harassment. > Recommending to the AD seems like the wrong approach. The AD isn't > going to be in a position to know the facts, the AD is not going to be > trained in harassment. As a manager I've sometimes been told by HR that > I had to take certain actions; sometimes I agreed, sometimes I wished I > had other options. However, sometimes the interest of (in that case the > company, in this case the IETF) to avoid harassment are more important > than an individual manager's preference. > So, I'd like to float the idea that the Ombudsteam is in the best > position to make harassment-related removals at that level. > > I've removed the sentence saying that the Ombudsteam cannot make > leadership removals because it's too easy to read that as an affirmative > statement against leadership removals. Instead, I've floated a specific > instantiation of the idea that the Ombudsteam does have the power to > make it impossible for a leader to do their job. I think it's important > to confirm we have consensus on this point. It would be a huge mess for > the Ombudsteam to try and do that and to discover we didn't have > community support for that. In effect I'm arguing that it's important > enough to make sure we're on the same page here that we float specific > text for this issue and confirm it doesn't attract unresolvable > objections. Pete has said on-list and in private discussions that he > believes their is support for the Ombudsteam choosing remedies like > this. > > >
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins
- What is a "management position? [Last Call: <draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-ha… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnicke… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnicke… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: RFC2418bis (was - Re: What is a "management p… Dave Crocker
- RFC2418bis (was - Re: What is a "management posit… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Barry Leiba
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Sam Hartman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Pete Resnick
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Sam Hartman
- RE: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Christian Huitema
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Scott O. Bradner
- Sam's text and way forward on the last call of dr… Jari Arkko
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Michael StJohns
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Eliot Lear
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Jari Arkko
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Eliot Lear
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Pete Resnick
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… John C Klensin
- Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt… John C Klensin
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Ted Faber
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… George Michaelson
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Jari Arkko
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Nico Williams
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Nico Williams
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Sam Hartman
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Sam Hartman
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Michael StJohns
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… John Leslie
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Michael StJohns
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… James Woodyatt
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… James Woodyatt
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick