Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt> (IETF Anti-Harassment Procedures) to Best Current Practice
Spencer Dawkins <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> Sat, 14 March 2015 01:39 UTC
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Message-ID: <5503914A.7060209@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 20:39:22 -0500
From: Spencer Dawkins <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
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To: Pete Resnick <presnick@qti.qualcomm.com>, Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt> (IETF Anti-Harassment Procedures) to Best Current Practice
References: <20150116152211.25947.49086.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20150117174430.9A0471ACE15@ietfa.amsl.com> <20150306163724.GA32205@verdi> <tsl385im2yp.fsf@mit.edu> <781553AA-EA2C-4057-9888-491C80A780DA@piuha.net> <54FE045D.3080606@qti.qualcomm.com> <tslr3sxep1l.fsf@mit.edu> <54FE6297.4090008@qti.qualcomm.com> <tslzj7i2wid.fsf@mit.edu> <55019E72.4090004@qti.qualcomm.com> <tslfv9a2t6p.fsf@mit.edu> <36671C44-DE53-4AC9-B8EA-465BF97B2FDB@piuha.net> <tsly4n0zo6g.fsf@mit.edu> <550350C4.9040201@qti.qualcomm.com>
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On 03/13/2015 04:04 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > Speaking only for myself: Oh, yes. Spencer is also speaking only for myself. > On 3/13/15 12:34 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: >> old: >> (The Ombudsteam can not impose that a Respondent >> who is in a IETF management position be removed from that >> position. There are existing mechanisms within IETF process for >> the removal of people from IETF management positions that may be >> used as necessary.) >> >> new: >> The Ombudsteam MAY ask a respondent to consider resigning from an IETF >> management position. The Ombudsteam May remove a respondent from a >> working group or document editor position. While this document does >> not create additional procedures permitting a nomcom appointee be >> removed, the Ombudsteam can exclude a respondent from meetings and >> mailing lists and other activities, making it impossible for them to >> carry out their appointed tasks. > > - With regard to NomCom appointed positions, this is just fine, and in > fact what the current text intended, while making it perfectly clear > what was intended. I don't strongly object to the "MAY ask a respondent to consider resigning", although I'm somewhat on the fence between - If that's the right thing to do, I'd hope the Ombudsteam would do the right thing, whether the procedures included this MAY or not, and - I'm not getting how involved the community expects the Ombudsteam to be in repairing the situation. I agree with Pete that the rest of the text is more clearly saying what I thought the text said. > - I am ambivalent about the Ombudsteam being able to remove someone > from a WG (editor/secretary/chair) position. While it certainly > doesn't get into the morass that we do with NomCom-appointed > positions, it seems to me that it's still a bit of > "crossing-the-streams", and as far as I can tell the same kinds of > things that can be done for NomCom-appointed positions (ask them to > consider resigning their position, exclusion from meetings / mailing > lists, etc.) would have equal effectiveness. So, I'm not sure it's > necessary. But as I said, I'm ambivalent. I don't actually know much about what ferresnickel talked about that didn't make it into the draft and subsequent discussion within the IESG, but the discussion I was involved in was focused more on excluding from meetings than from mailing lists, and we noted that the IETF actually has running code experience with ADs who aren't able to attend multiple IETF meetings in a row, and Nomcoms returned at least one AD in that situation for another term. If the community thinks that if you're excluded from meetings, you're also excluded from mailing lists, that's pretty much fatal for any IETF management position I've ever served in (WG draft editor, WG chair, IAB member, and AD). So, that's definitely worth discussing. And yeah, we spent more time trying to figure out what to do with Nomcom appointed positions than with anything else, so definitely worth discussing. > As for the thought experiment on how a recall might go after such an > incident: I am certainly more sanguine than Sam. Presuming an incident > where the Ombudsteam decides that an AD can no longer participate in > meetings and mailing lists (already I would hope a *highly* unusual > circumstance) *and* the AD goes haywire and refuses to relinquish > their title (even more unlikely) *and* the "two sides" try to get > their friends on the recall committee, *and* these supposed friends > agree to participate in such a thing (I have a hard time imagining any > of the people I know in the IETF being willing to do so), we still > have the case that the (hopefully sane) ISOC-President-appointed > recall committee chair is going to tell the committee, "Look, we are > not deciding whether this person can start participating in meetings > or on mailing lists again. They can't and that's not going to change. > The only question is whether they get to keep their office in light of > that fact." If at that (almost unimaginable) point a sufficient number > of people on the recall committee are willing to be so destructive to > the IETF that they are willing to participate in leaving the person in > the position, I think I'm willing to live with the IETF going *boom*. So, confidentiality ... If an AD who has been excluded from meetings says "I won't be in Dallas for personal reasons", unless the AD lives 2.6 miles from the IETF meeting hotel (this time, I do), maintaining confidentiality is fairly realistic. If we're talking about excluding ADs from mailing lists, we've lost that. ADs who can't send e-mail to the IESG mailing list would be fabulously visible to the rest of the IESG. ADs cc: a lot of mailing lists on almost everything we engage in, and if every WG chair has to forward my comments and discuss ballots on every draft because I'm excluded from their mailing lists ... done. At least, that's the way it looks to me, speaking only for myself. Spencer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins
- What is a "management position? [Last Call: <draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-ha… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnicke… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: Mailing lists [Last Call: <draft-farrresnicke… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: RFC2418bis (was - Re: What is a "management p… Dave Crocker
- RFC2418bis (was - Re: What is a "management posit… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Barry Leiba
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Dave Crocker
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Sam Hartman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Pete Resnick
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Sam Hartman
- RE: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Christian Huitema
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Scott O. Bradner
- Sam's text and way forward on the last call of dr… Jari Arkko
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Michael StJohns
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Eliot Lear
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Jari Arkko
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Eliot Lear
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Pete Resnick
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… John C Klensin
- Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt… John C Klensin
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Ted Faber
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… George Michaelson
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Jari Arkko
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… John C Klensin
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Nico Williams
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Nico Williams
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… joel jaeggli
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Sam Hartman
- RE: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Sam Hartman
- Re: Sam's text and way forward on the last call o… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Michael StJohns
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… John Leslie
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Michael StJohns
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… James Woodyatt
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… James Woodyatt
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Nico Williams
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05… Pete Resnick