RE: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt> (IETF Anti-Harassment Procedures) to Best Current Practice]

Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com> Wed, 18 March 2015 21:15 UTC

Return-Path: <huitema@microsoft.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB421A88E0; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:15:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JKxEO93QAJVs; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1on0708.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::708]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D3781A88AF; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (25.160.96.17) by DM2PR0301MB0654.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (25.160.96.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.112.19; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 21:15:29 +0000
Received: from DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.96.17]) by DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.96.17]) with mapi id 15.01.0112.000; Wed, 18 Mar 2015 21:15:29 +0000
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>
To: Scott Kitterman <scott@kitterman.com>, IETF Discussion List <ietf@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt> (IETF Anti-Harassment Procedures) to Best Current Practice]
Thread-Topic: What is a "management position? [Last Call: <draft-farrresnickel-harassment-05.txt> (IETF Anti-Harassment Procedures) to Best Current Practice]
Thread-Index: AQHQXhMNF1sj6dMmI06XJ+ul9kDgw50dApSAgADn2ICAAZmjAIAACBoAgAAIbgCAAAFqAIAAAlcAgAALhICAAAVEAIAAAvsAgAAPkACAAtDDAIAAJkkAgAAQQgA=
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 21:15:29 +0000
Message-ID: <DM2PR0301MB06557FEE7C6FE617E0AB38A3A8000@DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <5503914A.7060209@gmail.com> <5503BF22.5020902@gmail.com> <2AE2D092-C32A-46EB-88CA-71366965F4D7@cisco.com> <5505D873.1040203@gmail.com> <CAL0qLwbQf_2WUn8PrUXCMy_3w6tt+iJw0tyF=gUojA5fwRXJNg@mail.gmail.com> <550736E0.6080101@dcrocker.net> <20150316203250.GJ2179@mx1.yitter.info> <55073F22.6000606@dcrocker.net> <20150316204616.GK2179@mx1.yitter.info> <55074AC1.9080500@dcrocker.net> <20150316214620.GO2179@mx1.yitter.info> <550751AC.7090108@dcrocker.net> <55075EBA.4000905@gmail.com> <5509BB58.4060307@qti.qualcomm.com> <7BBD194A-A4BA-48E6-9B5E-BF0040BF64E8@kitterman.com>
In-Reply-To: <7BBD194A-A4BA-48E6-9B5E-BF0040BF64E8@kitterman.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e8:ed31::2]
authentication-results: kitterman.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;
x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0654;
x-forefront-antispam-report: BMV:1; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(46102003)(99286002)(33656002)(40100003)(230783001)(106116001)(107886001)(86362001)(93886004)(86612001)(102836002)(2900100001)(2950100001)(62966003)(77156002)(74316001)(54356999)(2501003)(92566002)(2656002)(122556002)(87936001)(50986999)(76176999)(76576001)(3826002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0654; H:DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en;
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <DM2PR0301MB06544D427766240E6985EFC0A8000@DM2PR0301MB0654.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:;
x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(601004)(5002010)(5005006); SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0654; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0654;
x-forefront-prvs: 051900244E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.onmicrosoft.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Mar 2015 21:15:29.3645 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0301MB0654
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/6qMPIhpSr2-YsEbMvgHBqD5oJHc>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 21:15:49 -0000

> Since the accused can't be kept quiet, is it realistic to have a document that
> purports to provide confidentiality? Unless the identity of the accuser and the
> alleged victim are unknown to the accused (which would create its own set of
> problems), the process can't really be called confidential.

+1

This kind of process only remains confidential if it is somewhat consensual, both the plaintiff and the accused agree that the settlement is fair, and both agree to leave it at that. We will see escalation if either party believes that the result is unfair, e.g., that the plaintiff's complaint was not taken seriously enough, or conversely that the accused was not given due process. In that case, either party could take the IETF to court, and the whole affair will become very public.

This is not idle speculation. We do see escalations against universities for their treatment of assumed sexual improprieties, resulting in some cases in millions of dollars in settlements. There are plenty of lawyers who see "amateur justice" as an opportunity for lucrative settlements.

-- Christian Huitema