Re: Terminology discussion threads
Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> Fri, 14 August 2020 02:21 UTC
Return-Path: <rlb@ipv.sx>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EDC23A0C0D for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:21:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DNSOlHlODb-x for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qt1-x82c.google.com (mail-qt1-x82c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E686E3A0C0A for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:21:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qt1-x82c.google.com with SMTP id e5so5994127qth.5 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:21:49 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=NNpXYwsg+/az/4AnzRJldH6eLwDPTNgUDXIo8uL8SFw=; b=sWYRAOETj1wdoPKHFRcZGDyOzBYeUqlqRgG7sF5SvPFNp5aShkeSMYVVyCPIX7y9Gq xQIOpPDHGNiONFLP7qtRuZJ1Ma52MSfP6Vc7nX6389GRgRstf/+KtxsCta0mzs508pdH MsGoS/y4zK4qK6WmkcRnrXD17QzzRpveLvs/XqIU120S4GZepDgUKecl7EOdqX/lpVRZ XcVkKLxY807HS1+c7Z7kPI1QQ24wfhCo9p3oj6FUFWdXpjJzpGq7D30gpakUOt31UczE xyHMOD9E3ryABWIstDJX9bdJnCgTvAbxG04ol/ZR3+xjETWq/srLuV+4rQUUY9n+8j5W RYfA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=NNpXYwsg+/az/4AnzRJldH6eLwDPTNgUDXIo8uL8SFw=; b=bbCi2SHnR7rTYUD5H3S7iRamcRYIz7oMADokO/dlyBST2QJNPWhgfUGrMfk47de0vn rjom3bZ76ERd2ctJbHlom7lrtQqU7/HunDnTHbWFsBp/hwF2J2VjmuNIMRLhZESHDFoF rum4SNC1ItglltpOeUPMh68HuYTj35rUa2AFdQV3RQK96XkwFKICvR9pW3u/01mW1OaF bRyX2wImoTGxnwZYQS/4MxpE35HTShJ76/vIhp4xj4DHVxyMmR2v/41/TTX5V3AWrAsi 6mXD02yacvkrq6oRaFHLBNaGdN1F0lOirZUmvaEKAxQbKs38dMziXPAXB8aXQGRk27aH I0GQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Y6Hzt5PcBl4bqgrmnUG3C8ZNqqi7xmHmlX8ifRWdRPAazFdsF Lai5Y6p4V4WGsjUX9WHfYAd092+42+Tw3+EZmFUArKe0eZW0Wg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJySfRs2v7vfI/Lq1BdQj82vKpuGai/Lxybi8fUS9/0s8xUypF1UL7F3f16odcIW8aIlVzHMvIK1kZE8Wnf1E1w=
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:32dd:: with SMTP id a29mr214784qtb.191.1597371708386; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:21:48 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <9ABDC2BC-E6A3-4249-99C5-F0BB3683A03D@ietf.org> <6AA0BCBB-D95B-4036-B94D-5E79E7B94D75@ietf.org> <20200814020459.GH3100@localhost> <682B60BF-563C-4995-B7AE-ABE5B9ED7C7E@dukhovni.org>
In-Reply-To: <682B60BF-563C-4995-B7AE-ABE5B9ED7C7E@dukhovni.org>
From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 22:21:32 -0400
Message-ID: <CAL02cgS44UnAtK8fFrc5gnJdxu3h2zgStmw0AYW03BBn30h86Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Terminology discussion threads
To: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000040c19505accd1514"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/jKE07DE8rEbBI-zZH0Llxep6IUo>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 02:21:51 -0000
Hi Nico and Viktor, Thanks for the reminder. I had been meaning to follow Barbara's good example and unsubscribe, and your demonstration of the precisely the lack of respect and empathy that Alissa's message calls out was the perfect send-off. I will be unsubscribing from this list after sending this message, and focusing my attention on what productive subgroups of the IETF still remain. --Richard On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:11 PM Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org> wrote: > > > > On Aug 14, 2020, at 12:05 AM, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 09:48:30PM -0400, IETF Chair wrote: > >> I believe we wind up in this kind of situation over and over because > >> IETF participants have no shared norms about respecting each other or > >> demonstrating empathy towards one another. With no norms about > >> respecting one another as human beings, no value assigned to composing > >> thoughtful replies, and no expectation of simply treating each other > >> with kindness on the list, our discussions devolve into toxic, snarky, > >> knee-jerk back-and-forth. Without norms, processes like the one > >> established in RFC 3005 are not worth much. > > > > This is the least empathic message in all of this thread. > > > > Some of us have been quite polite, professional, and reasoned in our > > positions that do not support yours. We get no credit. Instead we see > > insinuations and bullying by the leadership and others. > > Indeed not just some, but most. > > I'd like to call on the SAA to advise the IETF Chair that the quoted > blanket smear on the character of the participants in the prior threads > is out of line, and an apology is owed to the IETF community, along with > an expectation that this sort of slander will not be repeated. > > -- > Viktor. > >
- Terminology discussion threads IETF Chair
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Lars Eggert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Richard Barnes
- Re: Terminology discussion threads David Schinazi
- RE: Terminology discussion threads STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Eric Rescorla
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Melinda Shore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Ted Hardie
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Lloyd Wood
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Sergeant-at-Arms
- Re: Terminology discussion threads (CORRECTION) Sergeant-at-Arms
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Dan Harkins
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Masataka Ohta
- Re: Terminology discussion threads IETF Sergeant at Arms
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Martin Duke
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Dan Harkins
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Wendy Seltzer
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nadim Kobeissi
- Re: Terminology discussion threads IETF Sergeant at Arms
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nadim Kobeissi
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Ofer Inbar
- RE: Terminology discussion threads STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Michael StJohns
- Re: Terminology discussion threads IETF Sergeant-at-Arms
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Randy Bush
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Richard Barnes
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Melinda Shore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Eric Heflin
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Charlie Perkins
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Kyle Rose
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Toerless Eckert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Bob Hinden
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nick Hilliard
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Leif Johansson
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Toerless Eckert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads David Schinazi
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Keith Moore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Michael StJohns
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Pete Resnick
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Richard Barnes
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Toerless Eckert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Leif Johansson
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Toerless Eckert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Michael StJohns
- Re: Terminology discussion threads S Moonesamy
- SaA Team actions (was: Re: Terminology discussion… John C Klensin
- Re: Terminology discussion threads IETF Chair
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Alissa Cooper
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Richard Barnes
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Paul Wouters
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Martin Thomson
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Melinda Shore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Carsten Bormann
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nadim Kobeissi
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Rob Sayre
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Bron Gondwana
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Paul Hoffman
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Paul Hoffman
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Eric Rescorla
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Christian Huitema
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nadim Kobeissi
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Dan Harkins
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Nico Williams
- Self-moderation Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Self-moderation Mary B
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Mary B
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Keith Moore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads (off-topic) S Moonesamy
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Jen Linkova
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Jared Mauch
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Dan Harkins
- Re: Terminology discussion threads tom petch
- Re: Terminology discussion threads (off-topic) Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Terminology discussion threads (off-topic) S Moonesamy
- RE: Terminology discussion threads Larry Masinter
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Carsten Bormann
- Weekly message summaries John Levine
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Fernando Gont
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Warren Kumari
- On plenary functions Eliot Lear
- Re: On plenary functions Carsten Bormann
- Re: Self-moderation Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Self-moderation Warren Kumari
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Miles Fidelman
- Re: Self-moderation John C Klensin
- Re: On plenary functions Jay Daley
- Re: On plenary functions Keith Moore
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Keith Moore
- Re: On plenary functions Carsten Bormann
- Re: Self-moderation Stewart Bryant
- Re: Self-moderation Carsten Bormann
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Carlos M. Martinez
- Re: Self-moderation John Levine
- Re: On plenary functions Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Self-moderation Warren Kumari
- Re: Self-moderation John C Klensin
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Patrik Fältström
- Re: On plenary functions Eliot Lear
- Re: Terminology discussion threads tom petch
- Re: Terminology discussion threads S Moonesamy
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Jay Daley
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Mary B
- Re: Terminology discussion threads Toerless Eckert
- Re: Terminology discussion threads S Moonesamy
- Re: Weekly message summaries Töma Gavrichenkov