Re: [v6ops] draft-vf-v6ops-ipv6-deployment

[Vasilenko Eduard <[e-mail]>]

Hi Jordi,
I was probably too pessimistic about the number of cases when CDN proxies from IPv6 to IPv4. I have read that CloudFlare makes it by default (Enterprise could switch off).
I do not believe that man enterprises have incentives to activate this functionality on CDN consciously – they probably do not care. But if it is by default – then they would probably did not touch it too.
It is interesting how many services (%) have been ordered from CDN providers with such proxy activated.
Eduard
From: v6ops [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:14 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-vf-v6ops-ipv6-deployment

Hi Eduard,

I’m not sure if I’ve not explained myself about this.

Since many years ago, I will say 100% of the key CDNs/caches are IPv6 enabled. Several of them in fact mandatorily must be IPv6 “connected” (so if an ISP or IX want to host it, must provide IPv6 addresses and connectivity to the CDN/cache). I believe the “mandatory support of IPv6” in order to allow hosting a CDN/Cache is true for Google and Facebook at least, but it is just on top of my head, so my memory could be failing.

Most of them enable IPv6 *by default* unless you manually turn it off, *even if your original content is not* IPv6 enabled.

That means that it is a conscious/deliberated decision to turn off IPv6 in a cache/CDN.

Of course, this decision is often only taken if there is some clear signs of incorrect behavior or impact, for example, because a bad IPv6 deployment inside of an ISP network, and it is disabled “only” towards that ISP, not globally.

There are several colleagues from CDNs in this list, so they can provide further inputs.

However, I did a quick search about the status and defaults of the top ones. Not all the info is clearly presented, but is a matter of digging more in those CDN providers blogs, etc., to find further info.

I’ve not used any specific order in this list, just randomly as they come to my mind:

https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/229666767-Understanding-and-configuring-Cloudflare-s-IPv6-support

https://www.akamai.com/us/en/multimedia/documents/product-brief/ipv6-adaptation-product-brief.pdf

https://support.google.com/interconnect/answer/9058809?hl=en

https://netflixtechblog.com/enabling-support-for-ipv6-48a495d5196f

https://aws.amazon.com/es/about-aws/whats-new/2016/10/ipv6-support-for-cloudfront-waf-and-s3-transfer-acceleration/

https://www.cachefly.com/cachefly-is-ipv6-compatible/

https://s24.q4cdn.com/538403808/files/doc_news/Limelight-Networks-Automates-IPv6-Enablement-for-New-and-Existing-Customers-2012.pdf

https://techmonitor.ai/technology/networks/tata_communications_launches_global_cdn_service

https://www.codeinwp.com/blog/maxcdn-vs-cloudflare-vs-cloudfront-vs-akamai-edge-vs-fastly/

https://blog.sucuri.net/2016/09/ipv6-adoption.html

https://www.keycdn.com/blog/ipv6-support

https://www.verizondigitalmedia.com/blog/verizon-digital-media-services-announces-ipv6-compliance/

https://www.belugacdn.com/

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/updates/ipv6-for-azure-vms/



Saludos,
Jordi
@jordipalet



El 31/3/21 13:11, "v6ops en nombre de Vasilenko Eduard" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> en nombre de [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> escribió:

Hi Jordi,
The fact that something is going to CDN would not help you. Because every CDN accelerates many Web sites.
If the original Web site does not support it – then CDN could not help here. It would continue to stream IPv4 for this request.
For your question: “how much traffic could be IPv6 overnight” – we need traffic per primary N Web sites.
Sorry, the cheapest is cFlowd statistics for this. DPI is more expensive.
Eduard
From: v6ops [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 1:44 PM
To: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-vf-v6ops-ipv6-deployment

Hi Eduard,

All the customers I’ve worked with, even just for trainings, and also operators that participated in “free/open trainings” for example in RIR and NOG meetings, have answered this question “do you know how much % of your traffic goes to CDNs/caches”? I’m talking about over 75.000 engineers that I’ve trained since 2001, and I started asking this question around 2010, so let’s say in the worst case only 1/3rd of them know the answer (because I did less trainings in the last 10 years than the first 10 ones).

I guess this is something they can measure at the edge of the border, peerings, etc., etc. I don’t really care how they do it, if it is fairly close to reallity, otherwise, they will haven’t answered so categorically. For example, they know how much traffic goes to the self-hosted CDNs/caches or IX, in case they don’t host their own CDNs/caches but the IXs offers them, etc.

The response has been initially “more than 65%”, then I started to get answers closer to 75%, 80-90%. I didn’t took note one by one to make my own “stats”, but when I consintently get an answer over 65% and I notice that, across the years that this response is going higher and higher, I think we can have some conclusions and not be too much erred.

We don’t need to “check” if the destination is IPv6 ready. Today, it will be dificult to believe that *any* CDN/cache is not IPv6-ready. We should not count if CDN “x” has disabled IPv6 for customer “y”, because that means “that” customer is not yet IPv6-enabled or they did a bad deployment and the CDN decided to turn it off to avoid issues.

What we pretend to measure is “if you do a good IPv6 deployment in all your customers (at least in the residential ones) how much traffic will use the CDNs/caches with IPv6”. Just knowing how much IPv4 traffic today is going to the same CDNs/caches, provides a very good anser to that question.

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet



El 31/3/21 12:22, "v6ops en nombre de Vasilenko Eduard" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> en nombre de [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> escribió:

Hi Jordi,
When I was on the big Carrier side
We have collected cFlowd sampled statistics (for many reasons).
Then it was possible to put it into some database
And then get N biggest traffic directions out of it.
It was a pure manual exercise in our case.
The result has given many surprises to us☺

The next option is to use DPI statistics that could be of the same rich. DPI (PCEF) is available only on Mobile.
I am not sure they have a pre-loaded template, but chances are good. Just one problem: the discussion below was more about FBB, not MBB.

Unfortunately, all off-line traffic engineering tools (I would not mention 3 vendor’s names here) collect statistics only for MPLS LSPs. That would not help here.
One other big tool has a big collection of sampled cFlowd but it refuses to let it out of a proprietary database.
Hence, such statistics could not be collected for free in any other process or tool.
It is a specialized “project”.

I am not sure that many Carriers could do what you want. This task was not easy a few years ago.
Staring from the fact that not all carriers collect sampled cFlowd from all ports to general-purpose collector, then facing the problem to aggregate it.

Additionally, they need some check which one destination is IPv6 ready. It would be a manual process too.
Eduard
From: v6ops [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 11:42 AM
To: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-vf-v6ops-ipv6-deployment

And more important than that … this site only shows “number” of websites, but it doesn’t show “how” much % of traffic those web sites are delivering vs. % worldwide.

This is very simple. We can make a poll and evaluate the results in the list. We can find a way to make it anonymous (no need to indicate your email or name). People could respond the poll without telling what is the ASN/network, just be honest when responding. What do you think Fred/Ron?

Each operator or people having details of one or more networks, to tell us how much traffic in your network is going to caches and CDNs, you don’t need to indicate which ones, just totals (so include all the big ones such as video services, social networks, or other well-know that have IPv6-enabled).

It doesn’t matter if you don’t offer IPv6 to your customers. If you know that (for example), 85% of your traffic is towards those services, we know that turning IPv6 on to your customers will turn your % of IPv6 traffic towards that figure.

Even if we ignore “smaller” sites, the % of traffic to them is probably negligible, even if an “important” service for an specific operator is not there. This can compensate somehow the % of IPv4 traffic to video sources from older (non-IPv6 enabled) smartTVs or STBs.

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet



El 31/3/21 9:03, "Vasilenko Eduard" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> escribió:

Just small good news:
Content is not “sitting steady at 15% IPv6”.
It has healthy 23% CAGR by https://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/site_element/all
[cid:image001.png@01D7265F.80AB0840]
Chicken and egg are evolving one after another.
Eduard
From: v6ops [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Gyan Mishra
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 9:00 AM
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=[e-mail]<mailto:jordi.palet=[e-mail]>>
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-vf-v6ops-ipv6-deployment


In theory if you flipped a switch and all fixed broadband and wireless 4G/5G access layer providers all around the world banded together and ditched CGN and turned up IPv4AAS and so now all subscribers - all the billions of subscribers around the world are now officially IPv6 only.

However let’s say this happened tomorrow but our web content and traffic volume is still sitting steady at 15% IPv6 and 85% IPv4.

The needle would not have moved at all as we only fixed half the problem.

We need to get all the web content to move to IPv6 and that’s an problem of economics that we need to push the envelope on all web content providers charge high for IPv4 premium $$ to incentivize moving to IPv6 by forces of economy where money talks.

Gyan

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 4:29 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
I will say that the “long” and “unpredictable” time for IPv4aaS is an advantage, because you “stop” provisioning IPv4 now, so it is one less problem to worry about.
You’re not longer worried about “how” much usage of IPv4 is done, except for a single thing: reducing the number of IPv4 addresses in the NAT64 (for example in the case of 464XLAT). You could even ignore that, but of course, it is good to reduce the number of IPv4 addresses if they are not used, because you can either transfer them and get some money back or use in other parts of the network.
The question is: Do you prefer to ged rid off IPv4 as in many parts of the network as possible sooner or later?


El 30/3/21 22:21, "v6ops en nombre de Gyan Mishra" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> en nombre de [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> escribió:



On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 2:34 PM Yannis Nikolopoulos <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:


On 3/28/21 9:47 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Dual stack has no time limit
(for us ISPs) it has, it painfully has, if your user base is still growing

Gyan> I think to your POV there is a flip side as dual stack is simple and easy cannot get any simpler than that, however the downside is the process of deployment can be painfully slow but it all depends. If you are provisioning 1000s of sites for dual stack that still can be done with ZTP even with complex DMVPN or other overlay topologies dual stacked still not difficult.  I think whenever manual configuration comes into play and you have even a 100 sites or devices that can be painful and lengthy process.

There are definite tradeoffs.

Dual stack is less complexity but then you have IPv4  provisioning and numbering plan so you could say that in itself is complex.

If it’s fixed broadband BNG or 4G/5G mobile the drawback as well with dual stack is IPv4 addressing numbering plan but having to maintain configuration for both IPv4 and IPv6 could be considered complex, even though the dual stack process is as simple as it gets.

With IPv4 AAS the attraction could be the minimum configuration footprint number of lines of config.

Learning curve yes for operators but you could say that for any technology their is a learning curve.

I think the bigger deal for operators is how long the timeframe to maintain IPv4AAS is a bigger factor as that could be decades and it could be almost like a permanent solution.




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