IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: tone policing

Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Tue, 03 September 2019 00:26 UTC

Return-Path: <sayrer@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F2412008F for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 17:26:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.997
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QFn7FUHdwb6S for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 17:26:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77A17120033 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 17:26:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id d25so29508604iob.6 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 17:26:01 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wrK0nB98GTMaprux4myiHrzk54GMj6Tl6SxNfM427Aw=; b=JWAUTfFEwahnxKyWTV0+gyhjdhLbSfp2UjWJ2IAJFs7Gwf/g2lsBnj2QNcvZA6/ptj GtsH/fCjDdts6TKSelnPfPd01FDnOIlEeF93FItWp6dc2weJut0zCpYDkYJbTRviPc8L MlmntrVtAToBftxHYC7dZEdrqg6ZePi+kjYaKN6wkuGHfdbO5d1XimHGYPE6s/EEhrmB ZnAdvk+zN4XpBCeXM2X4VI5JHMVNc7h6/pKUs+1ngVLuFxPA70+Cy1mAe8aNbwE6XAj4 FG1d43+Q7nwl1ctjo8FRWhjtVF0WaxHQuDXPv4Gdz6DRt0lSb0Q2dLWyTEl9VmhZJgzs 1mRQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wrK0nB98GTMaprux4myiHrzk54GMj6Tl6SxNfM427Aw=; b=FzLoCNKvGdDZxsguiXcl4H1HGGS0kbZJoftLunyyw67G6miEoqj3s0lOuVmuCFxbXI 6rdPYK2+mBXvMJ3IOpovyIBnmgkW/OntGk/Zr+ApmfT0IG/j2AOA7dlX2URL+htQh+KB UdtIki1bmDu4WwNQHqs5K7EI/PNcOrTylJ9RMMGzdlIzjixjZKF19o/VGtMCOkf0cwo2 OkA6LCc2TshUxrVQGDw4PDHQpogOIpu85V6ggH3zFzrhe8IiP78xFekCt1c8lXoRTlfP LarEBaFdjHajmQvWwjPzWHUEGA4ILnmtgQySucIz4qPB9Qk912fQCefb0+hUwHTTO+o6 tZfA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU5zyvtk891G8x1UTgVU6fLbEd/9oF954ksvk88PUibbvDp3vv8 tsBG6IOGK+oN5A0t9eQ839zJ56MO84sflqE3vH9pCyoH5sU=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzcnolMp55/dQzlJCsC5bDV4IKxL5i/HQegKAX78I2GnT4ozCJqfRSseaTy5gFmgsQqL9X5g9+fb9jVC70EEag=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:928:: with SMTP id 8mr12797674jak.124.1567470360676; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 17:26:00 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <964a7d97-f146-4d2e-aa3e-d39fc08f6f76@Mikes-IPhone> <20190901195210.GA27269@kduck.mit.edu> <f4a03464-9c9d-9ee5-088a-586e2bb326b1@comcast.net> <4100d3fa-3bba-41dc-3df2-bf2d3dc0f667@network-heretics.com> <6abdd246-6ac0-7369-35b8-e299373eee64@gmail.com> <3a707945-2a88-66a1-f5c0-006fae1c77c6@network-heretics.com> <B21A8972-C958-4468-9C2E-73E1773B1C91@mnot.net> <a76b3022-d94e-32c1-97c5-45cfa347481d@network-heretics.com> <BC82596B-E402-41D4-AD22-474E98F2FE86@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <BC82596B-E402-41D4-AD22-474E98F2FE86@mnot.net>
From: Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 17:25:47 -0700
Message-ID: <CAChr6SxH=fvdBZdGqFx6GK+BJfLAVUhfpJ2vG8Wsr157f63tWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: tone policing
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b4d0c05919b2201"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/CxMcxtJouA-wmY0otQ7QjK9IHgE>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 00:26:03 -0000

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 5:06 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

> OK. We seem to be thinking about different things, which means that
> specific examples might help. Saying that "anything goes" as far as how you
> communicate is OK by the IETF seems like an open invitation to
> unprofessional behaviour -- which *is* bad behaviour.
>

I don't agree with this position, although I understand its intent is
well-meaning.

The problem is that it might discourage messages that advocate obsoleting
obsolete entire jobs, entire companies, entire protocols, etc. In some
sense, saying those things is unprofessional. It's not exactly a "never
burn bridges" strategy a businessman might have.

This is entirely separate from questioning peoples' expertise or motives.
Or, even worse, just bullying them for being new or using a word
incorrectly. This happens often in the IETF, and I agree with efforts to
tamp down on that. The IETF has taken a harsher stance on that, and I fully
support it.

thanks,
Rob

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email