Re: [IAB] New proposal/New SOW comment period

[John C Klensin <[e-mail]>]

Christian,

I just noticed that I had never responded to your note below.
It deserves an answer, particularly because I think you have
identified a key reason why various of us keep talking past each
other.

Briefly and I hope correctly interpreting your comments, many of
us believe the RFC Series is an Internet Community resource and
publication series and that, when ISOC and the IETF took on
responsibility for it in several stages from the early 1990s
through 2007, it was doing so as, to use Jon Postel's language
form quite a different document, a trustee for that larger
community.  It is obviously reasonable to question that role and
its ongoing appropriateness and to assert that, e.g., the IESG
should have control over what is published.  I can certainly
remember discussions of that issue in 1994.  We had them again
leading up to the publication of RFCs 4844 through 4846 in 2007,
and several times in between and subsequently.  I think it is
safe to say that the community has never been in complete
agreement since the RFC Editor Function was separately and
directly funded by the US Government and probably not even
before then.  I do not, however, see that discussion as "some
people believe one thing and others believe something else" or
"whether the RSOC (and, to some extent, the IAB) agrees with my
understanding of the role and function of the RFC Series".  From
my point of view, the community was asked that question as part
of the "RFC++" discussion of somewhat over a year ago and there
was a fairly clear answer of "not just about the IETF" (both in
terms of the series and what things were called).  If we
disagree about that conclusion, then we have another problem.
But, even if you (and others) believe the outcome of the July
2018 discussions was unclear with regard to the function of the
RFC Series, I think we end up with two issues:

(1) Where the RFC Editor Function is concerned, are the RSOC and
IAB responsible for fairly interpreting community consensus
(even if only EITF community consensus) and following it, or can
they reasonably go off in other directions without any
accountability to the community?

(2) Given that the RFC++ effort was an attempt to redefine the
RFC Editor Function at least with regard to how documents are
named and that it clearly did not get [even] IETF community
consensus, is it reasonable to use Heather's decision to step
down at the end of the year (whether that decision came as a
surprise or was deliberately or accidentally induced) as an
excuse or mechanism for opening the question of the role of the
RFC Editor Function again in such a short time?   And, if it is,
should that question be posed in a balanced way and asked openly
and specifically rather than partially hidden in the plans for
replacing Heather (whether temporarily or permanent, etc.).

FWIW, there are many other questions about the RFC Editor
Function and the RFC Series about which assumptions have been
made for many years but that sensible people can argue are
obsolete.  One that has been raised repeatedly (and that the
RFC++ effort certainly touched on) was whether Independent
Submissions are still necessary and appropriate given all of the
other ways by which information that comes out of the IETF can
be published.   Another is whether the whole idea of archival
documents is necessary any more.  Recent threads on the
rfc-interest list lead me to believe that there are several
members of the community who believe the answer to the latter
question is "no" or perhaps that the IETF model for
authoritative clarifications to standards-track documents is in
need of reopening and reconsideration.

best,
   john




--On Friday, September 13, 2019 11:00 -0700 Christian Huitema
<[e-mail]> wrote:

> On 9/13/2019 7:44 AM, John C Klensin wrote:
> 
>> The difficulty, which several people tried to get a
>> focus on (before IETF 105, at the plenary, and thereafter),
>> was the question of whether the RSOC (and, to some extent,
>> the IAB) understood (generally and consistent with community
>> understanding) the role and function of the RFC Series, the
>> relationship of the RSE to that function, the appropriate
>> interpretation of "oversight", some important management and
>> procurement differences between hiring and management of
>> high-level professional and, procurement of
>> easily-substitutable commodity items.
> 
> John,
> 
> The way you phrase it, there is an eminent understanding of
> the role and function of the RFC series and the RSE that
> everybody should agree on, and you suspect the IAB does not.
> That why you use the word "understood" in the quoted text. I
> think that vocabulary presumes the outcome of the ongoing
> discussion. For example, you and several others including Mike
> and Brian hold it as obvious that "the RFC series is bigger
> than the IETF". That was certainly true in 1981, but I am sure
> there are people who don't believe that in 2019 -- and those
> people are indeed part of "the community".
> 
> You may believe that you have a superior understanding, but
> the correct phrasing would be "the question of whether the
> RSOC (and, to some extent, the IAB) agrees with my
> understanding of the role and function of the RFC Series".