Re: tone policing

["Joel M. Halpern" <[e-mail]>]

Dan, you asked for specific examples of speech whose acceptability has 
changed.

A clear and simple example is personal attacks.  It is no longer 
acceptable (or at least, we try to make it impossible) to respond to an 
argument by saying "you do not know what you are talking about, so we 
should ignore your input."  Other even more extreme and personal 
comments were once accepted in this community.   they are not accepted 
any longer.

This debate seems to be about how do we handle cases which are not 
simple and obvious personal insults, but can be taken as such.  (Part of 
the complexity lies in who could reasonably take it as an insult and 
when.)   Given what has been acceptable in at least some working groups 
in the recent past, I personally hope we can improve the situation. 
Having said that, I do recognize that we need to avoid going overboard 
and losing the free technical discussion that is the core of our work.

Yours,
Joel

On 9/9/2019 6:27 PM, Dan Harkins wrote:
> 
>    Hi Rich,
> 
> On 9/9/19 1:42 PM, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>      > The world has evolved, and what used to be acceptable is now 
>> commonly seen as less so, and as a worthwhile trade-off for more 
>> inclusivity.  You seem opposed to the IETF doing this, or do I 
>> misunderstand you?
>>>     You misunderstand me.    I do not object to trying to be more 
>>> inclusive,
>>      but I strongly object to imposing arbitrary, poorly-defined 
>> constraints
>>      on IETF contributions.
>> I am sorry if I was not clear.  I am saying "we are choosing to do A 
>> in order to get B"  You are saying "I want B without A"
>>
>> So, like Paul asked: how do you propose to get B without A?
> 
>    You are assuming that if you do A you'll get B.
> 
>    What is this evolution of which you speak? Can you give me specific 
> examples of things
> that used to be acceptable at the IETF but now are commonly seen as less 
> so?
> 
>    I'm pretty sure B in your example is "more inclusive" but I'm not 
> sure what A is.
> 
>    If A is more mentoring then great. If A is more Sunday classes for 
> newcomers then great.
> If A is prohibition on speech that is based on the recipient deeming it 
> "toxic" or "harsh" or
> "hurtful" or some vague word then not great at all.
> 
>    regards,
> 
>    Dan.
> 
> 
>