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Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)

Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> Wed, 10 July 2019 15:17 UTC

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In-Reply-To: <013801d53729$708c5710$51a50530$@olddog.co.uk>
From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:17:02 -0400
Message-ID: <CAL02cgQPuvVdO6UXkXYLwvD41+2_pBRwj0MXG=qA1oPt73BFmw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
Cc: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, IETF Rinse Repeat <ietf@ietf.org>
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You're absolutely correct that any tool comes with a learning curve.  The
trick is "bringing the mountain to Mohammed" as it were; using tools for
which many people have already climbed the curve.  By definition, anything
that is IETF-custom is brand-new learning curve for a newcomer.

--Richard


On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:12 AM Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:

> Is it really that hard?
>
> Even crusty old idiots like me have worked out how to use an editor to
> make XML that is acceptable to XML2RFC. I doubt that I am clever or more
> talented than Fellows of major engineering organizations.
>
> All tools (even github) require to be learned.
>
>
>
> Replace tools with better tools, by all means.
>
> But don’t make changes for personal preference: that way lies unending
> debates about whose preference is best.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
> *From:* ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Richard Barnes
> *Sent:* 10 July 2019 14:57
> *To:* Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
> *Cc:* Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>; IETF Rinse Repeat <
> ietf@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents
> (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
>
>
>
> I'm glad it works for you.  The non-IETF-habituated new authors I've
> worked with have found it mystifying.  Including everyone from junior
> engineers to Fellows of major engineering organizations.
>
>
>
> As Christian says, our continued attachment to bespoke tools is a barrier
> to getting new work in the IETF, and thus detrimental to the long-term
> health of the organization.
>
>
>
> --RLB
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 9:47 AM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
> >> Tooling is just one of the problems with XML2RFC. The real issue is
> >> that XML2RFC is completely specific to the IETF. This translate into
> >> training ...
> > It also has been optimized for the production of RFCs. Also note that
> > many changes in the v3 vocab just align the language with HTML (lists
> > and tables come to mind).
>
> from an xml non-lover:
>
> xml2rfc rocks!  it produces the baroqe, designed by committee, internet
> draft format from input which i can easily produce in my text editor.
>
> and the support, maintenance, and responsiveness of the tools team is
> simply stunning.
>
> [ and for the poster who wished for a gooey, there is one ]
>
> thank you!
>
> randy
>
>

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