IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)

Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Fri, 19 July 2019 01:51 UTC

Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1698312004E for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:51:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0_jDa0zhCwfw for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:51:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9868612004C for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:51:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B147F3F7; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:51:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:51:02 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=3Gsput/ctxM8fph8vK20dECSSdzScU/DMEvxiqbOV 5U=; b=HpakLPZTbi94RCp/UOlAe0Nysc/S/1L+sbNDHeZOoaVnA8N0U9PUUEwQa nMAw9m4tQuQvRaJtfzZHeWxqBQvbxOHW0rKuZaEGy5pYRCpuu8Xs+1xLLm+iqqhn JU2uVNwy7zYTaZA2GDp485jVdk/5oLBOp7fEe+cS2HLpkgJjQ4/o+/hX8NRQEkIl xQyQbnMd1eF+MN4e/SziPif2TnYYlULLOE4YOu4A2ZRse2jTIMMUq8YBphBwJJyL 7iz7kKqaFdUJeTUh5vk+Q+DTZJj+RF3YvKg5d09ueBAsbjmK5Hi/aMCIUHeqb7vs SxStn+5SHxJyMYoYSoHc8j2Mo/dAA==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:BCIxXVlcDiU7vsnijfB5Z_HcwOQ9xTeBNDGG_GjBb1p4asaOj3pu5A>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrieeigdehvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhffojgffgffkfhfvsehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhh ucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqe enucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrudehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhm pehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedt
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:BCIxXeUqD3hPUutCbGYeQsECBi7Yqpzrnfw0ZMPaIfFs7vY2AwyPpQ> <xmx:BCIxXeT04H16Y5KrIPQRIHic8i2ldPi-3udd_qeQqcd5Gam9OALk_A> <xmx:BCIxXbBqdPZ4mXaFo9-GYrjjv5WOPuAf3CeyRPUgqNb23eTqC5PWfg> <xmx:BSIxXb19o9yIRuj2908jOC9X1C8OkvR-GTxwTCr5stgZGxpTR8L4NA>
Received: from [192.168.1.80] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8C6888005A; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:51:00 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Subject: Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203)
In-Reply-To: <d08dbee2-7844-d813-0b93-5db503501c7e@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:50:59 -0400
Cc: Job Snijders <job@instituut.net>, ietf@ietf.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <50E6B4DF-83FC-46A5-94E9-1FF08F597CCF@network-heretics.com>
References: <6317584D-4C9B-46E9-8197-D2A488701868@fugue.com> <20190704140552.GE49950@hanna.meerval.net> <b0943792-1afc-0c94-51b7-f2d393ef39c5@network-heretics.com> <20190705205723.GI55957@shrubbery.net> <20190706185415.GB14026@mit.edu> <CABcZeBPgNr5UqQ0pLwwNu5wh0g9L9wCd6YyYKCUDO37SPru-_Q@mail.gmail.com> <20190708202612.GG60909@shrubbery.net> <9ae14ad1-f8d5-befb-64e4-fff063c88e02@network-heretics.com> <20190717004659.GC67328@shrubbery.net> <00618698-deec-64cf-b478-b85e46647602@network-heretics.com> <20190718231911.GA75391@shrubbery.net> <ed9d3b5b-7442-fdee-8f0f-c614ca4b59e4@network-heretics.com> <CACWOCC-T13zD1DVKA1H3UTNG9iKdNz5TDzObYPk_A6sjfPKFug@mail.gmail.com> <8F980759-324F-49C5-925A-DF0EEABBBD21@network-heretics.com> <d08dbee2-7844-d813-0b93-5db503501c7e@gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/C_20J7MZDo3elVFDVjQUnve1i3A>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:51:04 -0000


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 18, 2019, at 9:46 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 19-Jul-19 13:23, Keith Moore wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 18, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Job Snijders <job@instituut.net <mailto:job@instituut.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think you just now offended basically every working group participant.
>>> 
>> 
>> Not deliberately, of course.  But in general WGs can sometimes exhibit tunnel vision.  And ietf has a bad habit of trying to bypass tussles by creating WGs with overly narrow scope.., which doesn’t solve the tussle, just exacerbates it.  So yeah, in general, WG output needs external review.
> 
> I think it varies enormously between WGs. There are some that are small, expert, highly specialised and really do know more than anyone else about their topic, which is relatively self-contained. There are others that don't meet any of those criteria. Job's right about the first kind. Keith's right about the second kind, which really do need third party review. As a GenART reviewer, I've seen all sorts.

Yes, and I’ve repeatedly said I could see optimizing in corner cases.  But I think it’s a rare WG that doesn’t have any potential to adversely affect other interests.

Keith

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email