Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sat, 13 July 2019 03:34 UTC
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Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 23:34:03 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
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Subject: Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
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(Long message -- summary a few paragraphs down) Hi. Following this thread and the ones it has spawned have proven nearly impossible for me, especially in the run up to IETF 105 and the need to get many other things done if I'm going to attend the meeting. I have no way to know whether others (and how many) have suffered from the same problem or who see these threads (and the distantly-related RSE ones) as DoS attacks on the IETF list. I have certainly failed to read many messages and apologize if I've missed anything significant. However, I started writing a note over a week ago that I think is relevant to much of the discussion and whose content doesn't seem to have been covered by other messages, possibly because my history and perspective are a bit unusual among IETF participants. The issues may be important because they ultimately relate, not just to the RFC Editor Function and documents that are more authoritative and final than I-Ds but less than RFCs, but to fundamental questions about how we got here, how that relates to why the Internet took off and other alternatives didn't, and where we are headed. ---- TL;DR summary: (1) There is a conflict of roles inherent in the IETF's history, how it has operated until fairly recently, and how its ways of doing things seem to be evolving and transitioning. (2) Part of our traditional narrative (partially from long before the IETF) about why the Internet protocols succeeded and various of the alternatives, notably the OSI suite, did not is as much about failures on their part as about inherent brilliance on ours. (3) Several of the things that have been proposed are normal in traditional standards bodies and we should be careful what we wish for. And, I suppose, (4) been there, tried that, didn't like it. What follows could probably be expressed much better and far more succinctly by some of our present and former colleagues who are or were inclined toward acidity of the tongue and, in some cases, even name-calling. I hope what follows is much more respectful and appropriate, but that is part of what makes it so long. ------ Some of what follows is historical review. My apologies to those who know most or all of it already, but, even for them, the context may be a bit different than the way we've traditionally talked about these things. The IETF and its predecessors started out as engineering design groups. They made the decision very early on that an archive of what others might have called "design notes" or "informal working papers" would be helpful, an archive that became the RFC Series (see RFCs 1 and 3 and draft-flanagan-fiftyyears for details, perspective, and references). Even before the IETF was established, Jon Postel became RFC Editor and the shift from shared (and archived) design notes toward a curated collection that had to conform to Jon's (and later Jon's and Joyce Reynold's) editorial and technical quality norms rather than just being documents that anyone in the community could have published without prior review by anyone else. Calling some of the RFCs that were produced "Standards" came later and thinking of and describing ourselves as a Standards Developer came later still. If the details and exact chronology are needed, I hope someone else will fill them in because I wasn't paying very much attention when some of the key decisions were made. There is an intrinsic tension between the needs --and appropriate and optimal document identification systems-- for a standards development body relative to an engineering development and design one. It is not clear that it is possible to optimize both at the same time, nor that the IETF has ever gotten the balance right. As has been pointed out in this and the various RFC Editor-related threads, there have been a number of proposals over the years to make things better by either tuning our documents or tuning the standards process. The first major change after Jon Postel took control of the series was the introduction of Internet-Drafts which, AFAICT, were intended to serve nearly the same "quick availability of ideas for consideration by others" function that the RFC Series was intended to serve before Jon began to insist on quality and stylistic norms for RFC publication. As the IETF gradually became more of a standards developer, it not only decided that it should publish its work in the RFC Series and that some RFCs should be referred to as standards but established conditions and terminology for those standards. Those efforts culminated in the description of the standards track in RFC 2026 (and subsequent modifications that don't have much to do with this discussion except as noted below). It was probably wishful thinking (and, in retrospect, it definitely was) but the intended criteria for Proposed Standard was community consensus that a specification was adequately complete and clear enough technically and editorially that consistent implementations were plausible, not that it was a good idea or even nearly ready for large-scale deployment. It was a finished proposal, not a standard. Such a proposal is several steps above a working paper but still a step below anything the IETF was recommending deploying or really treating as what anyone else would call a "standard". In the last decade or two, only two of the proposed improvements got any significant traction in the community (and got a chance to get that traction). One was the series of changes to, and specific definitions for, the organization of the RFC Editor Function that followed Jon's untimely passing and Bob Braden's making it clear that he did not expect to be the lead on the RFC Editor Function forever. The other was the standards process change in RFC 6410, a change that was intended to improve on "the Internet runs on Proposed Standards". As I think I suggested in an earlier note, it, empirically, didn't cause great change. As least some of those of us who believed it was solving the wrong problem think our opinions were validated. I don't think we've ever heard an evaluation from those who thought it would move significantly more specifications off Proposed. The whole idea of a multistage standards process was, in this context, an attempt to reconcile the engineering desire to be able to get a stable specification that could be implemented, tested, and shown to interoperate with more traditional normative standards, including those focused on conformity. In other standards bodies, not only are documents either "standards" or "drafts", but the drafts are often treated as confidential within the development group. In other words, they are not available to the public while they are actively being worked on. They are definitely not archived and easily found, forever, by anyone who is interested. There are a few exceptions. For example, IEEE has "trial-use" specifications and some other categories that are different from traditional standards (https://standards.ieee.org/about/policies/opman/sect1.html). Long ago, when I was a liaison member of the IEEE Standards Board, my impression was that they didn't work well. In particular, I heard some of the same complaints we hear in the IETF, e.g., some companies marketed products based on them as stable and standards-conforming and implementers whined when they implemented a trial-use document and, when the final document came out, something got changed in an incompatible way. I have no idea whether our three-stage model influenced the IEEE, if theirs of different classifications influenced us, or if they were independent inventions. Would we have been better off it we had called untested specifications "Trial Use" rather than "Proposed Standard"? My guess is probably yes, but not much. I think our experience --both inside and outside the IETF-- is that, if people want to misunderstand or misrepresent that status of a document, they will do so regardless of what it is called. That same experience suggests that actual misunderstandings, especially by people who actually look at the documents, glance at status statements, etc., are fairly rare. On a different dimension of the problem, ISO/IEC JTC1 has, or had (I vaguely recall being told they had gotten rid of them), a variety of technical report that allowed publishing specifications that were either significantly pre-standard or that had not gotten and were unlike to get consensus outside the developing WG (and whose level of consensus within the developing WG could be what we'd call quite rough) -- the latter and "pre-standard" are, of course, not necessarily different-- (see https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso-iec:tr:10034:ed-1:v1:en for more information although there are probably better references). Those "type 2 technical reports" came with multiple warnings and disclaimers about how one couldn't claim conformance to them and that they didn't constitute recommendations. They were affectionately known as "substandards" internally. Our nearest equivalent is an I-D, but, while our boilerplate claims that I-Ds expire, we do too much to ensure that they are permanently available for that to be credible, especially if someone is inclined to mislead others about the status of a document. Have marketers claimed from time to time that Type 2 Technical Reports are standards? Yep, even though ISO and JTC1 have better tools to push back against that game than we do. Of course, their not making working drafts public (and protecting that status with strong membership agreements) at least helps to keep the status of those drafts from being misrepresented in marketing although not from premature implementations. Those other standards bodies have also been clear about the boundaries of their standards. Standards numbers are permanent and specifications are not considered archival. When a standard is extended, there are mechanisms for establishing "parts" or other components, documents are referred to by date as well as number, and, not incidentally, there are formal review cycles so that old and obsolete (sic) documents don't hang around forever as standards or require cruft-elimination efforts (see RFC 4450). STD numbers were supposed to solve that problem for us, but they were tied to full standards (of which we don't have enough to make them useful). We also discovered that the way we develop documents (that engineering history again) makes deciding whether a spec is, or is not, part of a given standard... well, sometimes not obvious. There have been proposals to fix the numbering and document relationship problem (most notably in the NEWTRK WG), none of which got the IESG to agree to process them, even when the proposals came out of a WGs and had WG consensus. The notion that, e.g., ITU-T has better-quality documents that we do is another one of those choices. ITU-T (and ISO, including ISO/IEC JTC1) believe that one should do final public review and ballots only on final documents, "final" including editorial work. If the public review and ballot process turn up problems, even issues requiring clarification, the normal procedure involves editing, a new draft, and a new ballot. Documents go into public review with text in need of clarification less often than it does with us because theirs have already been gone over carefully by professional technical editors who have the authority to either rewrite or to bounce things back to the WG (or SG or SC) before public review is opened (in theory, the RFC Editor has the ability to bounce a document that they can't figure out how to edit, but that has very rarely been done in recent years (I don't have statistics, but I'd guess just about never). In any argument between the editors and, e.g., a WG (or SG --their closest approximation to our Areas) about whether something is clear and unambiguously stated, their editors always win while ours are required to defer to authors, the IESG, etc. Instead, we approve documents in principle, assume editorial issues will be sorted out later (nit-picking aside) and give the RFC Editor staff, the IESG, authors, and sometimes WG chairs and a few others tremendous discretion about what changes can be made post-approval. Our way of doing things is probably faster, doesn't leave WGs sitting around for an extended period while their documents are edited or tie them up in editorial discussions, and, most important, gets the technical content of specifications that have gotten IETF consensus out there, rather than waiting until after the editing is done before determining consensus. Contrary to some comments about cost, the ITU/ISO way probably isn't that much more expensive in the normal case. The issue is mostly about whether to edit early or edit late with the understanding that editing between when the WG thinks it is finished and when a Public Review (them) or Last Call (us) occurs stretches out that time, often considerably. On the other hand, if a document were edited before Last Call and significant changes made during the LC and IESG review process, it would need to be edited again -- much of that would add costs. Coming back to the issue of whether document status may be misunderstood, we also know, because we have rather intense discussions about it every few years, that people confuse non-standard "IETF documents" and non-standard RFCs with standards. As suggested above, in most of the cases I know about, that confusion is not accidental even though there may be innocent victims. Instead, we see organizations promoting their products by claiming that they are based on "IETF specifications" (i.e., I-Ds or Informational or Experimental RFCs regardless of Stream) and implying those are standards. Or they may claim "published by the IETF" and close to standardization (i.e., I-Ds) or even imply that those are standards. We are not going to prevent any of that by changes in terminology or boilerplate: most of the liars know they are lying. If we are concerned about those problems, probably the last thing we need to do is to create a new category that provides a declaration by a WG -- whether there is IETF consensus about it or not -- that something is finished and stable enough to be used in deployed products. The intent may be clear and positive, but the opportunity for unscrupulous marketers is just too great. So are the incentives to just not bother going through an IETF Last Call and approval process that might change things and destabilize the spec. In particular, suppose we have a WG (or set of authors or Area) that doesn't see any incentive to move a specification to Internet Standard from Proposed even though it has been around for several years and has been widely deployed and demonstrated to interoperate. Shouldn't that WG reasonably be considered a candidate for declaring a document stable (and at least mostly done) and then not trying to move it to Proposed Standard? After all, most WGs are convinced that they understand the implications of their specs and that additional work is not needed or they would not push for IETF Last Call. Why should they invite the things that go with IETF LC including the procedural delays, hassle, nit-picking, second-guessing, and potential to be forced to make the specification worse to accommodate various ADs that have their own ideas about what it should say or how it should say it? Again, we know from other standards bodies how to mitigate (but not eliminate) most of those problems with "trial", "preliminary but stable", pre-standard technical reports, and similar documents. The main tool is to attach a rigid expiration date after which, if the the document has not been turned into a standard, it is automatically and clearly deprecated and authoritative copies are made hard to find. But we've tried that. RFC 2026 provides for automatic forced review for Standards Track documents that have been in a maturity level for too long, but we never applied it as a forcing function and eventually just deprecated it. Our original definition of a Proposed Standard differs from a WG-declared stable specification only in that IETF rough consensus was required (and it was allowed to be a lot rougher when we thought that people would actually accept Proposed Standards as what we said they meant). More generally, one of the things that makes the IETF credible is the notion of cross-area review. We need to _expect_ things to change as the result of IETF Last Call comments. Certainly, if we can get earlier reviews on specific topics and thereby improve the documents, that would be A Good Thing. But Last Call is intended to turn up "you didn't think about the consequences of that" answers, especially those that come as surprises. Recent discussions of layer violations notwithstanding, we rarely publish a standards track RFC that seriously messes up things in a different area. At least some of us believe that is due to precisely those reviews (whether by individual participants, area review teams, or ADs) catching issues that a WG (especially an excessively homogeneous one) might not. Allowing such a WG to declare a document "stable" or "ready for implementation" without that Last Call review, is an invitation for abuse, misrepresentation, and avoidance of final review, even if none of the WG participants are among the bad actors. best, john
- Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side … Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Richard Barnes
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Richard Barnes
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Paul Wouters
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… heather flanagan
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Heather Flanagan
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Michael Richardson
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Ted Lemon
- Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Do… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… John C Klensin
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Lars Eggert
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Job Snijders
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Salz, Rich
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Heather Flanagan
- Clarity, evolving documents, living documents, th… John C Klensin
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Clarity, evolving documents, living documents… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Joe Abley
- Re: Clarity, evolving documents, living documents… John C Klensin
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Randy Bush
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Leif Johansson
- RE: Clarity, evolving documents, living documents… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Fwd: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvi… Keith Moore
- Re: Fwd: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Ev… Randy Bush
- Re: Fwd: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Ev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… john heasley
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… john heasley
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Warren Kumari
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Warren Kumari
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Alissa Cooper
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Christian Huitema
- On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to be c… Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Randy Bush
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Richard Barnes
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Randy Bush
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- RE: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Leif Johansson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Sarah B
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Randy Bush
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Richard Barnes
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Richard Barnes
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Randy Bush
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Richard Barnes
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Leif Johansson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Donald Eastlake
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- RE: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Gray
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael StJohns
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Melinda Shore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Carsten Bormann
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Carsten Bormann
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Stewart Bryant
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Mary B
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Andrew G. Malis
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Ted Lemon
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Carsten Bormann
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Ted Lemon
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Randy Bush
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Eric Rescorla
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Joe Touch
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Joe Touch
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Ted Lemon
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Joe Touch
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… John Levine
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Joe Touch
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… John C Klensin
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… John C Klensin
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Nico Williams
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Stan Kalisch
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Joe Touch
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Joe Touch
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Julian Reschke
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… John R Levine
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… S Moonesamy
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Job Snijders
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Ted Lemon
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Ted Lemon
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Job Snijders
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Randy Bush
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Job Snijders
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Jared Mauch
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Ted Lemon
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Ted Lemon
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Jared Mauch
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… John C Klensin
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- is there a specific proposal for living ops docs?… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Job Snijders
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… John C Klensin
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Martin Thomson
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… John C Klensin
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… John C Klensin
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Salz, Rich
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Randy Bush
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Jared Mauch
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Randy Bush
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Jared Mauch
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Hans Petter Holen
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Miles Fidelman