Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)

Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> Wed, 10 July 2019 08:15 UTC

Return-Path: <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF4A120147 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:15:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hkmN71K0j3Yp for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:15:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF67C1200D6 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:15:10 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1562746493; bh=vsph2Kp+2RwQuC3oTbN7uBrvl8YPbgmTsxmtMGErf9A=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=YmByfajZM8od42qwmZS/WQ+ZBvqtL7Hd3Q9i9k07LEf+RaGfRccNJ4NNZrNOYjPIr m3OiqilajaNRNXr8DlT0ZkivqWkoFrneANkN4KGo+Biu2XBGAqJT3thNwMwteySru8 8C5I0D7LL7RgWmViy3Sov5BKSs3HRlf5P6FONmLA=
X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c
Received: from [192.168.1.34] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LwrPM-1iZf1R3G3M-016Kfo; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:14:53 +0200
Subject: Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
References: <20190704140552.GE49950@hanna.meerval.net> <b0943792-1afc-0c94-51b7-f2d393ef39c5@network-heretics.com> <20190705205723.GI55957@shrubbery.net> <20190706185415.GB14026@mit.edu> <CABcZeBPgNr5UqQ0pLwwNu5wh0g9L9wCd6YyYKCUDO37SPru-_Q@mail.gmail.com> <20190708202612.GG60909@shrubbery.net> <9ae14ad1-f8d5-befb-64e4-fff063c88e02@network-heretics.com> <CABcZeBOH9LH8Jrz-A5eu9arqUb+bx8xs_eKWi0pyoh7a3qpOPA@mail.gmail.com> <20190708223350.GO3508@localhost> <af3b25d6-af16-a96a-c149-61d01afb4d01@network-heretics.com> <20190708233438.GP3508@localhost> <ea0b9894-ae9d-55a9-a082-af7aac5be66a@huitema.net>
From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <944332dc-bb2a-0717-8b9f-254b036fe59f@gmx.de>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:14:47 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <ea0b9894-ae9d-55a9-a082-af7aac5be66a@huitema.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:U7fHsnywWcutrQfyRk1X0OcJ9dSbrd3AFFUJB09indCEc6hqIbX ERnbPu3R51gNEkLhVy5CVPqBld0JE/K76YtKkB6rfHMKdXQs8xiJ0XsSL/xYvfFc6xbqZJL mPV/Uj82DpDtcHuJHnjnWEBTVKbYBi6vgr2tYy2WtSwekU5ekoybp6Cn61sqV7TYeAjZzwz BlWiIu/UQzlAoOvf5+D/g==
X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:16rm3iVKmtU=:X/NBbsoQYcN6k4gBnpQfwu CCVtRsoY6iP2t2N1UWDQc6OMY45PlLz4Bu6KbkJfTTmBNigNQpflNRE0rMSom+ZTpPUiZJoYW tAjxGKMlfHIoeiRLIkFdPUbxIi7enx2mU2ZZTNpHoW7QFR6B1Uhb1CeREneZRyYaXF/zOAiqO PuG9pYFNmDQ1Fk8K9nRYdqXlDrPnPuGbtHavgQ1IvZbnuSw62JlGuFTeyqEgbBWifD1g5zcrj N5XESfm9LV5v7vMavvlNg2w2eCcSYqvD1X5CHciTlmvW61Bjt6YNBNUkBYvsMGN/Ww8sZvug3 tKOn9AOv1gVXAt/NX1NU+eD/GkEBmbx4+g01zMUZlj6TN8iER1rL5CirKNI5NxJxHLCwRPG/B SRv5bu7Nw9VTFWHGLdrysYL+rxFOuc9s+K3ODu4DyT39+QHt+1OhU3IRF5bF6TRQ9fCfyrmb7 F3Jrl03D0+TbBXkZNaluwCoC2emJ5qGY8dF09aZEPaQFq4dA0Us8xe68UyF2u+cDQU0s44OjZ NW8FzCrHj16ZJGOJQ4s3hF8JoTBXXYckbbmCQ+YKl905HZYPjZD3c3D9cyvdmxJ4Xp8uXDHFv CZzOEDTiPBZAhISBOh1iDCXSLEBt0/4q4DTirVSzcOu39XAkoLs3ZOJgDe5I+DTxkshlDWRzS DDHWXyr0xL0Ti+FtVVvTxNPm2/8Qa6QqA2/LlAdtZM1T/h0OXTnuydotzDGDvEHAreLhWhSa6 3ZQAf5W/o5ANtRTNAvIEXwgu/9726MBeUJECRu2km4QABFQC8uJHfqKqNDtQAzeoimyg31SUD Y2tDCEKtmsS9I39d/h/7YIMF8e6nFCRAXnD8HgvgcbyBICbn4NcHX2+8eyV6KmEso7kqIVCh7 OYsqAosllQ3XzRdPOoMbqXTsSyxQYP9ooSuWrGXqLMA719pSa3k9sQ/VTazD7y4rxDfDvGgN1 FO8u9bqUMgBLznG3UyIFxjE1REXAVT2z4Fahl89y+7OueAWu2asHWdZk1GdmIqQtwDoVhsSB7 0WpuwZzrmt5KzMBs1KCKqSQsNDR21u4lLe7CqD9PKTTPopjjls3SUccXUn2mFyjWWVuNHsDZf Gr0vsj9Q8RzoMfMIiGXZvo/rceDJ+XgZBU6
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/GiUNgIHjLv4W_DVX4ASfPIueeMU>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:15:14 -0000

On 10.07.2019 06:01, Christian Huitema wrote:
> ...
> Tooling is just one of the problems with XML2RFC. The real issue is that
> XML2RFC is completely specific to the IETF. This translate into training
 > ...

It also has been optimized for the production of RFCs. Also note that
many changes in the v3 vocab just align the language with HTML (lists
and tables come to mind).

> requirements for people who need to actually use that markup language,
> absence of easy to use tools because the user pool is too small to
> sustain development, and then a reliance on translators between an
> easy-to-edit format and the publication. For example, a team of authors
> would be using markdown and Github, and using a tool chain to produce
> XML2RFC. But if a copy editor suggests updates to the XML text, these
> updates cannot easily imported to the original markdown document, or to
> the markdown starter for the "bis" project.

And the solution for that of course is to let the copy editor suggest
updates to the actual document source.

> ...

Best regards, Julian