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Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FTP Service

tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com> Mon, 30 November 2020 17:27 UTC

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Subject: Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FTP Service
To: ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
References: <af6ab231024c478bbd28bbec0f9c69c9@cert.org> <5FC24768.2020603@btconnect.com> <e170d248-8559-a64b-eaa0-620d78746f1c@gmx.de> <69878065-D4F0-438F-A57F-B45F052CA94F@akamai.com> <5FC4E79F.5090207@btconnect.com> <AF1C8668-041D-425B-8350-0B70D3BE76D0@tzi.org> <a92c9bf8-2682-6150-a9db-d6185c6720ec@network-heretics.com> <8210e140-815c-1905-45a6-109075138a08@gmx.de> <1663649a-7f99-5eb2-3dd5-c146aebf6fa3@network-heretics.com> <01RSM30KYRKO0085YQ@mauve.mrochek.com> <f88ae3bbdc3b4beda88eb094dde85784@cert.org> <01RSM4KK2V5I0085YQ@mauve.mrochek.com>
Cc: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
From: tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com>
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On 30/11/2020 15:18, ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com wrote:
>> Hi!
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
>>> ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com
>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 9:37 AM
>>> To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
>>> Cc: ietf@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: Call for Community Feedback: Retiring IETF FTP Service
>>>
>>>> On 11/30/20 9:23 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Over here, Firefox saves the originally received text file, so does
>>>>> Chrome.
>>>
>>>> Perhaps that behavior has changed.   When you learn a way to work
>>>> around damage, you tend to keep doing that even after the damage gets
>>> fixed.
>>>
>>> True. but more to the point, are you willing to bet that this behavior is never
>>> ever going to change in any future version?
>>>
>>> If so, I have a couple of bridges you may be interested in purchasing at Cyber
>>> Monday discount prices.
>
>> I'm having trouble understanding the failure mode.  Is the issue at hand that
>> when one uses a browser to download say
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7230.txt, a text file isn't being returned?
>> Furthermore, is the concern that browser vendors have changed their behavior
>> over time when saving .txt files?
>
> The failure mode is that browser behavior is in a constant state of flux. Some
> time ago you got HTML-ized text, yesterday you got text without the form feeds,
> today you get the text file verbatim. Who knows what you'll get tomorrow?

All the CSS preceding the text; well, that is what I got this morning 
when prompted by Julian's post but tomorrow, well, tomorrow is another day!

As I just posted to Carsten, this was a major problem 35 years ago which 
is why protocols like FTP are rich in options to handle this.  I could 
be 180 degrees wrong that HTTP/HTML is making no changes and so giving 
just what is on the web site which is then no use to me and it is FTP 
that knows what I really want and is making corrections for me, such as 
inserting <CRLF> or <FF> where I need it

Tom Petch

>
> And as Keith points out, the problem is significantly exacerbated by
> experienced people not engaging in problematic behavior without really thinking
> about it, leading them to assert that there are no land mines simply because
> the path they have learned to follow avoids them.
>
> 				Ned
>
> .
>

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