IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: Bad/Good ideas and damage control by experienced participants

Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Wed, 15 June 2022 14:43 UTC

Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F816C14F74D for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 07:43:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -8.784
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.784 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.876, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sCJquGL8XjNo for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 07:43:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73049C159481 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 07:43:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8FB5C013A for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:43:40 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:43:40 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; t=1655304220; x=1655390620; bh=o HgU+X6jaM99x5JgD3YKcLxwIYUx5rJtRzbu34CR9cQ=; b=MdDR0uduX92d5MsLW qThIDY+7H+otdQtSSbymt92o53TkPqQ9PD1DWAiMsFaazyE3LMaoBYjtZeXyyyg0 6EVBWO0F1FAVr9AsMioaveFU+sGLoAlwRJjivgdUcXdzkxTxqzCHZ6EKIvIA+P0L Wmbv4vjFgQdXW10mE5p84P09wEL66X6BM3hHnlACkqReUXgsqWc3/OD45E9CyXfI oubqbyTjZ0anZO6+cTFIyZZLmvgPRRjzzEk3SiHOJ7gh+XUqZGKgT6mZlDWGOC66 p8yO5pk+iNJU/5Uf9NhvdaA+VIrf0T4YNclI9UWXwIT0N9PDJOuNF+dqhwF8MaPV 8SdiA==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:HPCpYjupASU9U7eeXWsUy4DJvh6geyANWo4_rb3ZFjpip1_zmFN1Tg> <xme:HPCpYkcsGrSWetu7dKT1lVsGrVMRUwA8nQSHEK8OJGTX4hy3ozWD1L_WUIlVTT8U_ h_cvV-TKOvmOA>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:HPCpYmz8wI24iTotrrCaA3N4n-mbBixnM-Uemr7MvRYVDVSdLdIsgrLtcWz_QT8i8tKF2pA04w63PdVBgmvXz4PuSf5jteTNJl-ZYC023mns1WL42U5YMg>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedruddvuddgjeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeftddvleeije evkeejhfeuudehveeihfejfedvgfduhfffhfduuddufeeggfetveenucevlhhushhtvghr ufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorh hkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:HPCpYiPuZ145UdD7R-S-6NoRHOBwP5VuLtCmh4skWIOdZ7qIztDccQ> <xmx:HPCpYj-bu7BaQmTCXbFDrbImbHAPbVBEEUz-8RNNuSL-UMsoKHp9tg> <xmx:HPCpYiVQVg5BdfqD2hd2Jumhp-GPSuCpAmKyh6T3tKHpw4wALeea8g> <xmx:HPCpYmLgKXRj07ZknP385wS4NIHArArftb1DjW9KBVAnA3ELgO4_Yw>
Feedback-ID: i5d8c41f0:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:43:40 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <f939307e-279c-9c1b-3c28-b969f7b0f18f@network-heretics.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:43:39 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.1
Subject: Re: Bad/Good ideas and damage control by experienced participants
Content-Language: en-US
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <20220614144751.97882437791D@ary.local> <cf6d63e8-aebc-9c2a-1137-96c3d1c86570@gmail.com> <962ec243-78c9-fb54-1666-90b43b3b240c@foobar.org>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
In-Reply-To: <962ec243-78c9-fb54-1666-90b43b3b240c@foobar.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/0gM4CefM7xgelxCLzj_NFqL7Img>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 14:43:46 -0000

On 6/15/22 08:37, Nick Hilliard wrote:

> The freedom to be "snarky with a snot-nosed kid" also includes the 
> freedom not to be snarky, and given that the latter almost always 
> produces a better outcome,
I have a strong sense that as long as we keep casting this problem as 
one of conflict between stereotypically "bad" people and "good" people, 
we'll fail to address the underlying issues, and mostly just promote new 
kinds of arbitrary prejudices.   We'll get no closer to making IETF more 
productive, and just create more ill will and brain drain.

Keith

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email