Re: Bad/Good ideas and damage control by experienced participants (was: Harassment, abuse, accountability. and IETF mailing lists)

[Barry Leiba <[e-mail]>]

I'm going to skip most of your message in this response because it's
not relevant to the real point I'm trying to make, and because I think
that point is very, very important:

> > Is that an aspect of our long-term culture that we would be better
> > off changing?
> >
> > I think we do, and it is, and getting offended and claiming ageism
> > when someone points that out doesn't help.  Let's look at ourselves
> > and see how we can do better.
>
> But do we have over-critical people in IETF who are too eager to shoot
> ideas down?   Sure we do, at least IMO.   But of those people, why
> penalize only those who have grey beards, or who are older males?   Why
> are those things relevant?   What purpose does that serve?

I'm not arguing that issue.  I think the people Tim quoted (or
paraphrased) were pointing out where they saw the bad treatment coming
from.  The issue to me isn't *who* is doing it, as I really don't care
to focus on that.  It's that it's a long-term culture that they're
seeing play out.  I agree with that: I think we DO have a long-term
culture of accepting bad behaviour toward each other, and I think we
need to change that culture.  And we need to do it clearly, strongly,
and as a group.

"No, stop: That's not how we treat each other!  DIsagree, even
vigorously.  But don't be nasty about it.

Barry