Re: Harassment, abuse, accountability. and IETF mailing lists

[Keith Moore <[e-mail]>]

On 6/9/22 12:41, Keith Moore wrote:

>>> It's not that people can never be rude (they can), or that rudeness 
>>> is a good thing (it's not).   But much of what people call rudeness 
>>> is subjective and arbitrary.   If people can be shut down for 
>>> rudeness, that inherently stifles a robust dialog aimed at 
>>> discovering technical truth.
>> The counterpoint to that is "If people are not shut down for 
>> rudeness, that inherently stifles an open dialog …"
>
> Except that that's not true, or even defensible.   If anything it's 
> the opposite of the truth.

I thought a slight clarification might be useful, because some people 
are probably thinking "how can Keith be in denial that rudeness can shut 
down dialog?"

There's an important difference between observing that rudeness can harm 
a productive dialog (which I agree with), and concluding that "rude" 
individuals must be sanctioned or otherwise discouraged (which I 
disagree with, at least without a much more precise definition of what 
constitutes inappropriate behavior than "rude").

It's not only that "rude" is inherently vague and subjective. It's also 
that there are already too many people in IETF who think that /they/ are 
fit to decide when someone else has crossed the line, that their own 
(likely unexamined) notion of what's appropriate should dictate others' 
behavior.   Those people should be discouraged rather than encouraged.

I've also seen too many instances in which "rude" individuals were 
deemed "rude" (or worse) because they told inconvenient truths, or 
because their technical agenda threatened someone else's technical agenda.

Sometimes IETF discussions desperately need a dose of truth, but people 
are afraid to speak up for fear of being labeled as "rude" or worse.     
I have lost count of the number of times that I've spoken up about 
something uncomfortable, and received significant amounts of private 
mail thanking me for doing so.

Candor is essential for IETF to do its job well, and it needs to be 
encouraged.   Discouraging "rude" behavior has the opposite effect.

Tolerance is a necessary condition for IETF to function.   The trick is 
to draw a better line between "conventional" and "rude".

Keith