Re: Harassment, abuse, accountability. and IETF mailing lists

[Jay Daley <[e-mail]>]

> On 9 Jun 2022, at 14:57, Keith Moore <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> On 6/9/22 07:40, Jay Daley wrote:
>>> I think the problems arise when almost any attempt to be
>>> critical is interpreted as being at least disrespectful even if
>>> not actually rude.
>>> 
>> That’s certainly a problem to watch out for along with other blatant abuses of power.
>> 
>> In my experience though, that is rare and what is far more common is a situation that begins with someone being both critical and rude at the same time, and then descends into a downward spiral of people talking across each other - one group for whom the rudeness is the main issue and and one group for whom the criticism is the main issue.  I often see those in the latter group interpreting any admonishment for the rudeness as targeting for being critical and therefore an abuse of power.
>> 
> Some people take any kind of criticism of what they think is important, as rudeness.
> 
> And some people will use any tactic to shoot down a person or an idea that they don't like, including accusing the person advocating that idea of rudeness.

Both true but both much, much rarer than people responding to genuine rudeness.

> It's not that people can never be rude (they can), or that rudeness is a good thing (it's not).   But much of what people call rudeness is subjective and arbitrary.   If people can be shut down for rudeness, that inherently stifles a robust dialog aimed at discovering technical truth. 

The counterpoint to that is "If people are not shut down for rudeness, that inherently stifles an open dialog …"

>   And that's why vague rules against rudeness are toxic to a consensus-making organization.

" … And that’s why no rules against rudeness are toxic to a consensus-making organization."

Are we therefore agreed that both "no rules" and "vague rules" are bad, or did you mean that rudeness is too subjective to be defined in a non-vague way?

Jay

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> Keith
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-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
[e-mail]