Re: Bad/Good ideas and damage control by experienced participants

Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> Wed, 22 June 2022 17:04 UTC

Return-Path: <tbray@textuality.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF904C157B35 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:04:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -6.909
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n3N_D4_FS9CB for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ej1-x62f.google.com (mail-ej1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B0FCC14F732 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ej1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id v1so35542671ejg.13 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:04:22 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PL820AO4jfUIPskOBKy5K9OIQHuJdz3JKijultdhxuc=; b=CwgcOUUSOlnLKrg8xD51OLYp2lfaNvdHl7HbfyQfAVmD3BOrehmhPHQHNTNNI4qi+A rQKW2Jh3TjZvyfnD0AYKukl2/FDOmEsYQSoS2uRc19ut68oS8AX/YCnLOnnXl4v0QrnC x2sSmfbm5CcEa1jWZaHxWhypnbRwqgSwJZgK+2i10lqp4uFtKugAtEQEA20MRUmLf2ox kyxIi9/Ht2KWWukHRaanlMm5d0fIVCzNeL3XAomNObItAD3kpFv3qs/QL+wMDre4RSJR H08rprFJfyQeSqfnhTB1FbWV1t682NMdT1/WxgVgghGJinHfaZME9RsDc0rECRvDa4Wk yMdA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PL820AO4jfUIPskOBKy5K9OIQHuJdz3JKijultdhxuc=; b=iU8RivlcsGRAlyKz+MOS9hCW3aCb3YvR73TFHg8kKiZA2oMYIjqwLBLIU3xSb4FPoH cPHj0EdHL4JOfQ2FHeLBMiV2+B18ISz1KMNUE0IDMZfpdBtVhKeAWoTsvxA6HplIJRcs lwkwMG43UnDA9Gxoqc0wXQQ60YpgTh1DESZCOYnZ9NTB7wJ9OSbBavzs0/9OdnvdskQ+ VIUWr68qVZ3SpwTQJcN4HhwsuReuimgxhB31KJGBZHMU4Tz1U2jwLUuDglo7mwFzjoDj ap+EMcaIPm78HmEYNdVSv+UVxZTpmvd1AewxWoZxMY37YA6ek6aRTYOG1lBPse5Ae6K7 j6iw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora+Qul/cB0kHZJ9N4cqgHxp2s10zN7TuvslLiZWJKitS3HjBu17j mOo1uSOVnEGQrpg+IH2DZ68zXgfF9rAUvkwqqKAS8A==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1uh+3hmFR+rjvWu5r1q+H8ocPDNmzg6lu6zrlwsSnQlHwpA/zE2qzyKs1p8Jx51Q9u8VebyTOUsbiGI76hBGHA=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:980a:b0:722:f4a7:e00 with SMTP id ji10-20020a170907980a00b00722f4a70e00mr2911087ejc.114.1655917454891; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <d734b973-2d7c-95f2-0b34-162800180575@foobar.org> <C635EB0F-CF94-4AD3-8436-218A48F107DD@yahoo.co.uk> <9fd0dd16-e789-7546-0e69-e1864508f2bb@network-heretics.com> <fb2fc1f4-a137-652b-0fad-3c96ba5bfa5f@meetinghouse.net> <acf2152d-9da8-d7d3-a313-54970de8ac72@foobar.org> <CAMm+LwhnyU4WO5KcquotLcsj9XFwbf-MU+vFZXmwTmZUmHhr-A@mail.gmail.com> <62B2D362.70507@btconnect.com>
In-Reply-To: <62B2D362.70507@btconnect.com>
From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:04:03 -0700
Message-ID: <CAHBU6isKGjAVNFWUakm_NBmEkm9exyWFURGbnGdNofLMT0nAiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Bad/Good ideas and damage control by experienced participants
To: tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com>
Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>, Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org>, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ad312f05e20c535e"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xwXH0B4ODZguDq-QJlSD9z6fw5E>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 17:04:25 -0000

The below from Tom Petch captures my opinion.  I have sympathy with more or
less all the notes from all the factions in this discussion, which
instantly stops when they say or imply “… and that’s why it’s OK to be
rude.”  I just don’t think that’s ever OK in the context of an open-to-all
mailing list representing the public face of something that claims to be a
standards organization.  That includes when discouraging a dumb idea that
is being proposed for the seventeenth time.
On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 1:32 AM tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com> wrote:

> I think that that exemplifies a universal truth that is often missed and
> is perhaps the core of this discussion.
>
> First, criticise the behaviour never the person.
> Second, own it; not 'that is stupid' but 'I think that ...' ideally with
> logical reasons, never with emotional ones.
>
> It took me a long time to realise how much nicer the world is when I
> remember this and, even now, I sometimes need to remind myself (as in
> opposing the adoption of an I-D which I am about to do).  I would
> sacrifice all the spell-checkers in the world for a reasonableness
> checker along these lines.
>
> Tom Petch
>
>