Re: Harassment, abuse, accountability. and IETF mailing lists

Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Thu, 02 June 2022 00:58 UTC

Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626EDC15AAC3 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:58:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.781
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.781 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.876, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yQ1LsuXtlZA7 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:58:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B46CC14F607 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2022 17:58:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C343200927 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2022 20:58:22 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 01 Jun 2022 20:58:22 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1654131502; x=1654217902; bh=N ahy6z37lVCpmzISH2SiLWCHbqyLsm0UvxDJ2138QMs=; b=Y/FaVvUjQbh3QQU3Q HcN5j37BNbWmb2xudduIEdwHVaCoRVXoJi2dnJxFpxmDfcXwz3gBU/xCp7xjY76s D+wqIUaNuhBOxV4uFca4cjKjuo5baG1IrGWDw8NvbVRc2Lz+Uosm0Rrci3bqi/YW AFQdoDjEhqdihPZu3U1aK0lZgGlWzaRSDMWunxkxQg+46a6USXUMlvmMEDjck7Z1 gDAScq22z9cAUItncm6RIfn1zaLgnMcJGXLInA3uSoTavC2zE6HrMeRFD1Cxb1nr x82GZ16mHC6KsG5BLAE6ufRANIigkWPPvZ2fzYv/0+rrbkuSzk/R1WFZ9c9wSLol 4CLIA==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:LQuYYu_GjRAXn7ps5kd5_laI5jxXdzBqNxyEsuSswA7r8ntSbor85w> <xme:LQuYYuuJYltsfOENb8PGyF3iE4M0n59UwgWcJPQuuWxUg_jiuTLi0M2jwa2FQWbtM RweXPY6jETIAQ>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:LQuYYkAz4lYnPDupmFkfNs5sWtN7riOgCJ8DRP6yow5mHnldEUw3ff5aLy9SJvgLPg9qIApUedK__aKsBgPwKX-2xqqIHwlXZpjyyJ9NxKW4MODzEFIUlw>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedrledugdefjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfedtvdelieejve ekjefhueduheeviefhjeefvdfgudfhfffhudduudefgefgteevnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkh dqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:LQuYYme-PjwtGkcNL5BrqNjzfu_jcIP_R2FEI07z4RiNBPQpKTVyvw> <xmx:LQuYYjNg_xoek2CWG9l3EDx9RZ9TXWHixqKjbxAYzJ4Xn0zp3CwPIQ> <xmx:LQuYYglkFFnRq5Gw27j90C0z9HSSWai2lo2m2j3i_7N2U698PhaLdg> <xmx:LguYYpaAsO6_VrSgunohX2Jl4qsJ-l4ZEUY32xCt-zr_JGYCmG0Rbg>
Feedback-ID: i5d8c41f0:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 1 Jun 2022 20:58:21 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <26e7bf2f-6a60-047f-d77f-4861fd018cf6@network-heretics.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2022 20:58:21 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.1
Subject: Re: Harassment, abuse, accountability. and IETF mailing lists
Content-Language: en-US
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <16C5EC99A155D55344E1F195@PSB> <5a53fa11-8138-2261-0e30-ae603b064cc8@network-heretics.com> <452764b0-a758-874a-2ce5-122f9d0de763@gmail.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
In-Reply-To: <452764b0-a758-874a-2ce5-122f9d0de763@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/pd-rDB4_Qq1N8N_zHs3K6gis4ow>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2022 00:58:31 -0000

At least as a first approximation, I'm ok with the policy for non-WG 
IETF mailing lists being the same as the policy for WG mailing lists, 
and from that perspective the only clarification that seems to be needed 
is to identify just who gets to decide when someone has crossed a line 
and what to do about it.

But I don't want to create a duty to monitor non-WG mailing lists.  I 
don't actually think that having people who deliberately looking for 
excuses to sanction people's behavior on non-WG mailing lists is a good 
idea at all.  That sounds a lot like witch hunting to me.    Face it, 
someone who wants to find reasons to attack someone will certainly find 
them.   And a person who never says anything controversial is probably 
someone who is lacking in candor that IETF desperately needs.

Keith