Re: Harassment, abuse, accountability. and IETF mailing lists

Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Mon, 06 June 2022 11:56 UTC

Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF58C147921 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2022 04:56:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.784
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.784 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.876, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ciXhf6pnspKE for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2022 04:56:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F269DC14F742 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2022 04:56:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E895C006E for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2022 07:56:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 06 Jun 2022 07:56:04 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; t=1654516564; x=1654602964; bh=V ovbXmwIwPi5OOcbXaB38+wbY88W9dJZDVU5kLv6pHU=; b=mK1xheX99xplS+JYV hqND0Pcgvq49Vr+Pl3x4bjimU0IzjBcTAF+QEvGLd2wl9zA0Tz5cpZ4kea5yFMoY cmaerw0WHPpsfc8e06mhBoduvimmVdjz0L6cwo1M0YI4ODGkjSp62fba4S0cNIKM K8mPeqT1PkyLjjcL3p9L4zy4af10wObAIc3YXy1h3IW6aZ3VC+O5vgz94FWkCzwW 8jHR9RwISlTyJrZay7rsde28drH6cPcaRE+Vycd9Bsr3ckHt5/B/I/5sTPPtzZeB 4rF7GLA0ffrJRD8r5o1s47twPl8pMFAkmcnPCZ0g7bAXMlFUt6TMox4MOiclPl98 5sJsw==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:U-udYunRH3NL1xrnUxcWbGj1I4B3GNOLqZMPbVkeCW9P0BIeRggJTw> <xme:U-udYl3S5XOA1BmA0SrmOJi_GIBuAT7mS6kCUDJb3flUi6AJpFbly1BqbuxsWTFzO 5BqLR3ZcMF2Nw>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:U-udYsp39l66Q0oI7VMRDH-07y-G3krDNgymKwyDDFcbsJaLeKdd3Yf13t_qYxUp5do1E4RquBckgipmlnYDyaFUZXhEXt6RHlxr-O4w6AUUcK51e3nyGg>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedruddtvddggeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfhfhfgjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeftddvleeije evkeejhfeuudehveeihfejfedvgfduhfffhfduuddufeeggfetveenucevlhhushhtvghr ufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorh hkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:U-udYinpq732QmFlHL0QyXBWoz_7EY2a7mb7yF6pRM4YBZr-m_XTKw> <xmx:U-udYs3gvPHYfnC7GUy1GgcsRphjpIJVz8WtTYTvnhoprtNaWjCG8A> <xmx:U-udYpuBRiOZWPgN5enWvG8Om8jnUli8rkKlIEJaCRgJieHyq6Lu4A> <xmx:VOudYtAwdzSIbwZf0FmIe3zBKWolO_wts1r2ZljkF3d1Cn12OZvhcQ>
Feedback-ID: i5d8c41f0:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2022 07:56:03 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <a0556611-dc43-9280-1ab1-1ae747b21eff@network-heretics.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2022 07:56:02 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.1
Subject: Re: Harassment, abuse, accountability. and IETF mailing lists
Content-Language: en-US
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <16C5EC99A155D55344E1F195@PSB> <5a53fa11-8138-2261-0e30-ae603b064cc8@network-heretics.com> <452764b0-a758-874a-2ce5-122f9d0de763@gmail.com> <4520B31984B329BF6936113D@PSB> <6298831D.8030605@btconnect.com> <941D4EB9-8EDF-4612-AD55-251C381C09FB@episteme.net> <e1d5ba16-8c12-cd30-ea4c-762b9225cee4@gmail.com> <10863445C94B1C12A5973429@PSB> <A92F81D8-057D-4AA0-B94E-427D6F8AB53A@eggert.org> <55B5F6C1-B554-4675-BCD5-048043162D22@tzi.org> <65A1073F-8519-4BDB-B85C-72087B527498@eggert.org> <0325E09B-3B8D-47B5-83B8-ACA5A028B464@episteme.net> <629A3680.9010002@btconnect.com> <b97e7721-ae59-ab49-7f27-b427e2ef7bc6@gmail.com> <3A57F3D797B85E2F0A862687@PSB> <629B4ACB.8010308@btconnect.com> <A62BB706DDC6044CA7676E0B@PSB> <629DB8E5.7070206@btconnect.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
In-Reply-To: <629DB8E5.7070206@btconnect.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/WTSfX8lCCTuzVZZ9RVfqooSZNNs>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2022 11:56:13 -0000

On 6/6/22 04:20, tom petch wrote:

> I saw an apology for the use of '...considered harmful' recently and 
> was suprised that that phrase was .. well considered harmful

This makes me wonder: how is making a reference to a letter that's 
rather famous in Computer Science history any different that referring 
to any established technical term or concept? Granted not absolutely 
everyone will have heard of that letter, but is it really hostile to 
newcomers to use well-established language of the subject domain that we 
work in when that language isn't, say, sexist or racist?   Is it hostile 
to newcomers to refer to the end-to-end principle?

Keith