IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: Harassment, abuse, accountability. and IETF mailing lists

Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Mon, 13 June 2022 13:48 UTC

Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D908EC14F718; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 06:48:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.783
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.783 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.876, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BfV7RInK2GOa; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 06:48:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96D1FC157B3A; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 06:48:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C51C23200934; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 09:48:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 13 Jun 2022 09:48:38 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; t=1655128117; x= 1655214517; bh=8UKZeWcbz6TlqjvOLcTG7cdBBVIotTP6ejafeFePy00=; b=x cLGJqjxB1p+CQjMs+nt+hVHfiqvQJLIXwGpdDnqkmHNLz8JET19O6gKm1NqDDGF8 KvrUuDrhXrTV//M0IAs8V7d1dRzmHeR5r9QYkUk4WCSVOmxcO1eiBITChj35qFKO uCYdbI8+rjSHqlc2qZNy+IsFqfzZEsedHAxMYoQapM0LYjbUG7p0Z9qmkpRbfEWZ 5+PVsUKoW6Y8NVSeK/VqqEeMqp7vfy+yho6ZItpfIcF9KlVxX5+zUP8rW5aw3hWv FOfe5Ec7KlJBI9eZhcL2fj4sPXl/qMt0a3jUcjdy2gqRIz4JwWeILxcSYPA6xgj1 jFkVXfKCOXbhfNioOLa9A==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:NECnYlj3JVxY4Y9CzvJMeP6K3VAaiAmbzx4Hu4FPWjbnyf1xvJrKHg> <xme:NECnYqB8efXUoORxtHEmJKNB2EO74mkodNkgdNGO0YUWFyjuKEHMmWFJmbaMYJkiw Dqlaypt3K5Fcw>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:NECnYlEokkU5u3pOM4lJk1s5xVn4TBdnmM0624j1wHlcY60Vr3IAqQl6q12QyAHtoXVfu1FXY-korJI55kYhW0h7mXmDyrre-0hnaOuh8Z8EelZcAmCKwA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedruddujedgieejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfevfhfhjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepuedvheehte efudeujedtleduiefgvefggfduveevkeduvdehveevgeekffdvjedvnecuvehluhhsthgv rhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifoh hrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:NECnYqRcA52hlIRLL6uNGDdUUfcpcBq27Aei9yx4pbDL1yzNsoLpqQ> <xmx:NECnYiyOHbv5YuoUvB0Qg3roeAHYEjhXP-OMSSjQvMdb11BVNGJUgg> <xmx:NECnYg6tx_LJbquu23TK3L7dpK4lRIqBfIVMfNCdS8R5V2zooo7Npw> <xmx:NUCnYnrYA6-lDRH8jDcGtr_R1mK8wx5oMVQHewtM-aII1iDoxU17oA>
Feedback-ID: i5d8c41f0:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 09:48:36 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <68f1e878-9173-c6e5-bf41-e608bbe374ce@network-heretics.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 09:48:35 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.1
Subject: Re: Harassment, abuse, accountability. and IETF mailing lists
Content-Language: en-US
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, ietf@ietf.org
Cc: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org>
References: <16C5EC99A155D55344E1F195@PSB> <10863445C94B1C12A5973429@PSB> <A92F81D8-057D-4AA0-B94E-427D6F8AB53A@eggert.org> <55B5F6C1-B554-4675-BCD5-048043162D22@tzi.org> <65A1073F-8519-4BDB-B85C-72087B527498@eggert.org> <0325E09B-3B8D-47B5-83B8-ACA5A028B464@episteme.net> <629A3680.9010002@btconnect.com> <b97e7721-ae59-ab49-7f27-b427e2ef7bc6@gmail.com> <3A57F3D797B85E2F0A862687@PSB> <629B4ACB.8010308@btconnect.com> <A62BB706DDC6044CA7676E0B@PSB> <629DB8E5.7070206@btconnect.com> <a0556611-dc43-9280-1ab1-1ae747b21eff@network-heretics.com> <cba4c1b9-772f-8baa-d0fc-c94701747ec0@gmail.com> <C6E2D9FD91539FC17B7AD498@PSB> <8CD09EF0-A825-4539-9B3F-38B881BA4F2D@ietf.org> <6410e897-4a1a-35d7-9564-fe1b9445b2c5@network-heretics.com> <82ACFD06-E4C4-4DB5-A3DE-6543E41F8CB3@ietf.org> <2b247525-b651-1292-940e-fc98c2df84d0@network-heretics.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20220612063104.15cf60b0@elandnews.com> <aaebeec0-3b9b-5821-a3a2-f29259cac5c2@network-heretics.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20220612225926.0b84f7e0@elandnews.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20220612225926.0b84f7e0@elandnews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/Ehvh9t9kW5C66eLNWv1aH19Ns7U>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 13:48:46 -0000

> It is better not to mix workplace culture and IETF culture.

I think I agree.  IETF necessarily has its own culture, distinct from 
workplace culture.

>> And yes, some people will be uncomfortable with candor, because 
>> they've been conditioned to limit their speech in other contexts.   
>> But "professional" conditioning of that sort is harmful to IETF's 
>> purpose.   You can't expect to effectively build consensus among 
>> people who have been conditioned to withhold their opinions in their 
>> workplaces.
>
> I would limit the above to a person will be uncomfortable without 
> getting into the reason(s) as the person might have valid reasons not 
> to speak up.

There are many reasons why a person might be uncomfortable about 
speaking up.   But IETF can probably only address the problems that are 
caused by IETF itself.

Keith

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email