Re: [73attendees] Attendance by country

["Mary Barnes" <[e-mail]>]

Again, a YMMV issue.  Having spent 14 years in a both parent's working
household (and now being in a single parent household), this is still
not such a significant issue. In my experience, it's actually a bigger
issue in a household where the mother is a SAHM because they rarely get
a break.  And, yes, I know this is a controversial point. When I was at
Telecom '99, which required more than two full weekends away, the guys
were fussing as the SAHM wives back home were complaining about all the
family issues without the Dad home for support and they were really
taken aback when I told them that the job that the moms were doing was
far more stressful than anything we were dealing with on a daily basis,
particularly when you consider most of us have opportunities of enjoying
at least one nice meal and we usually have someone that makes our beds
daily, etc.  There is research that shows that the stress levels of
mothers (determined by both questionnaires and blood tests of hormones
impacted by stress) is equivalent to that of a soldier on the front
lines of a war. 
 
Personally, I welcome Monday mornings as I them get 8+ hours of sitting,
whereas I've just spent my weekend running around like a ninny, catering
to all the needs of my children.  And, maybe because I have two sons,
but the additional time with Dad while I'm away is actually a good thing
- there's a body of research that shows that time with Dad has the
greatest impact on how well kids do overall.  Also, despite the theory
that things are typically 50/50 in a household where both parents work,
that isn't the case - lots of studies show this and IMHO, it's this
issue that's a larger contributor to the divorce rate than being away a
few weekends during the year. As Keith points out, IETF standard's
related activities are far less demanding in terms of time away from
family.  
 
So, I really think this is a huge digression and not that important a
consideration in meeting planning, etc. We all make choices based on our
individual situations and if a job where one does have to take time away
from family is considered detrimental to the quality of life for a
family, folks can very likely find a different job. My experience has
been that the majority of folks that are active contributors in IETF
have top notch technical skills that are easily transferrable to a
different role even within the same company. 
 
Regards,
Mary H. Barnes

________________________________

From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
On Behalf Of Phillip Hallam-Baker
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:53 AM
To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
Cc: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [73attendees] Attendance by country


I don't see how it is possible for the IETF to schedule plenary meetings
that give WGs as much time as you have in a 2 day F2F. 
 
If you have small children missed weekends count for a lot more than
time missed during the week, particularly when both parents work.


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 9:25 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
<[e-mail]> wrote:


	We just to complete the story:
	 
	3GPP meetings regularly start at 9:00 on Monday morning and
finish at 3:00, 4:00 or even 6:00 on Friday.
	 
	ETSI TISPAN meetings work similar schedules.
	 
	Haven't been to ITU-T for a long while, but when I used to
attend SG11, they went on for 3 weeks at a time, and finished when the
traslators went home on Friday, and sometimes continued after, so
sometimes 5:00 or 6:00. Only relaxation on that one was that these were
generally SG or WP plenaries, and therefore you could let some of the
technical people go.
	 
	But the main point I am really making is that the shorter you
make the main meeting, the greater the need for face to face ad hocs
inbetween, so you may save 1 nights expenses in the main meeting by
gaining an extra night and a travel bill, and another travel round trip
elsewhere in the year. Plus all the problems of trying to schedule it in
my already crowded calendar.
	 
	regards
	 
	Keith


________________________________

		From: Phillip Hallam-Baker [mailto:[e-mail]] 
		Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:39 PM
		To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
		Cc: John C Klensin; [e-mail] 

		Subject: Re: [73attendees] Attendance by country
		

		IETF is the only standards body I work in that regularly
schedules more than one Monday and Friday meeting a year.
		
		OASIS does not meet in plenary session. W3C only meets
in plenary session once a year. 
		
		OASIS and W3C WG chairs know that they cannot schedule
F2F meetings for Mondays or Fridays, just does not happen. And I can't
think of an international standards body that does. IEEE, ANSI, ETSI are
all parochial, at least in theory. Two have a geographic descriptor in
the title and the other decided to insert itself into US politics by
lobbying Congress on immigration policy.
		
		
		On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 6:54 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
<[e-mail]> wrote:
		

			And the chief problem with a light Friday, is
that we have found it impossible to schedule WG ad hocs anytime from
lunchtime on Thursday because people have decided they are going to
start going home at that time.
			 
			If you cancel Friday, then you might as well
start about thinking about cancelling Thursday, etc.
			 
			Oh by the way, can we now schedule 3 ad hocs a
year so we can actually get the work done.
			 
			And IETF is the only standards body I know of
that seems to think the people need weekends off for those very special
US participants. Many home locations of anyone outside NAR cannot make
the connections to attend the Friday sessions and get home even on
Saturday morning. And I finally got home from IETF last Thursday
morning.
			 
			regards
			 
			Keith


________________________________

				From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Phillip Hallam-Baker
				Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:51
AM
				To: John C Klensin
				Cc: [e-mail] 

				Subject: Re: [73attendees] Attendance by
country
				

				Either meet on Friday or start mid-day
Monday.
				
				One weekend is acceptable home-wise. two
weekends are not.
				
				
				On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:43 PM, John C
Klensin <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> > wrote:
				



				--On Wednesday, 03 December, 2008 14:42
-0600 Dean Willis
				
				<[e-mail]> wrote:
				
				>> I have to second Mary's disagreement
on canceling Fridays.
				>> If there   are sessions on Friday for
me I don't want to
				>> travel that day   anyway.  What's the
hurry?
				>>
				>
				> Another $200 in travel costs (hotel
and meals), opportunity of
				> >  $1,000 in billable time, plus an
increased probability of
				> divorce costs for some attendees?
				
				
				Yep.  With small variations, that about
covers it.
				
				Of course, if we also met Saturday and
part of Sunday, that
				would guarantee Saturday night stays,
which might help offset
				some of the travel costs (although not
the hotel ones).    On
				the other hand, for those attendees for
which it is relevant, it
				would probably further increase the
divorce costs (or at least
				the divorce risk).
				
				       john
				





	
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