Re: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship program)
Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> Sat, 17 April 2021 22:03 UTC
Return-Path: <mike@fresheez.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321CF3A34C8 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.751
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mtcc.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kmaxKVog66-b for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com (mail-pf1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3B553A34C5 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id m11so20680255pfc.11 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mtcc.com; s=fluffulence; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=lkl5i8vqkNFyE+6TbuW3bNKE65o1Mm/sn3JCOUck9N8=; b=gQ+tsRnAqrOOJkFrv2RerZst30EoNymO+29Rw2dUZrshB/YqQkAHrpsMj8C1zKtLGs Dl4iic13Ellhabw9lytzqef4hAT4vwrWdq8Ki7O3WSn075LzLF7LOoidQS8TIvbyuuBV UBZNS53CyP1b1DaH8PyfBdeE0e/r8cviUsLRGjjSRb0SLx2H8cwRM0KgUWU4lHqkvCT1 Qt5S76Fs+hQ4S0ohvwJ7rDKXABCr3qJep1OIprhYIezXZ+Tdcjs4vWaVqRA8DvJYxPuW DUh9xzvx+0kgOg8OgWow9agNfcAIth/t/nNlh2RspsOvV+Di2BgkTCw62HFK6KaYn7h+ zBJg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=lkl5i8vqkNFyE+6TbuW3bNKE65o1Mm/sn3JCOUck9N8=; b=hJF6NxthmnMvw/vThlRP1lSjboGK3FTdmPt5GjcFa3QX/Eb1McLvm7KZGnZWfdYS9W 5GG5cY+oUD3hfWJByHYDdgYbTfn5OjGqatvwwcR7fZc4CWXlJXHCuF6fnHK1MgsT7OIw 8fsKk47/7DvAXh4Gx+KI8J5U4SSBKtjDqojwvJ1LPjwyfqe+pvGX+WpBj5HwOx45qLCF cvxEeGWJFAeYMDJwozx/Fj1gLdDtpus0ikUXD5MAc44N0juuc3v2V43i+a/54oX45Lwq iDkxtsrjebFQyKX0OSNiXuCYXh1VOC10mjZZZXFYzig4lncFSRinOTKDJKjRXykW0pV7 Pkew==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533u0hSD7OaeOL1TIYR6VkxMLDuImOhcCHro/7/ap0sEEh91w8Eh DIyA5TIjYEWt7y3bnsCiDAuntw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxOtGeFxVRvm7irmtIp5k3NN5f52yZm3nUv8z8m+DHTb9zHsCVmcawtG1SjY3LDEQaJGaIa/A==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:158b:b029:241:a969:4da6 with SMTP id u11-20020a056a00158bb0290241a9694da6mr13468491pfk.27.1618696987247; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:03:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mike-mac.lan (107-182-43-245.volcanocom.com. [107.182.43.245]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x13sm11252412pja.3.2021.04.17.15.03.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship program)
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, ietf@ietf.org
Cc: iesg@ietf.org
References: <CAHw9_iKcacK-gsmL9P_yBuyeGYnB44j1=TxF=VnG3Uu65JKJcQ@mail.gmail.com> <10C5497B-FCC3-45BE-B6A7-EE3A1C1D6883@akamai.com> <f02a58f3-ff79-3f3f-fc31-7aa17f7d14aa@mtcc.com> <698cf4f7-de67-8efb-a944-b29da42dca31@network-heretics.com> <dc7ff33f-a007-7afe-7d1b-92a242b7c799@mtcc.com> <aaebce66-6318-dc16-b8b0-5a7d7e3361a3@network-heretics.com> <6f709190-7f44-906b-a36b-90a8a4d73153@mtcc.com> <1b9fd5ac-5ef6-0114-4a2e-96e7a53aa665@network-heretics.com> <cec30d23-6d88-9de9-c606-b6cc2bbeb922@mtcc.com> <3fa5b354-c11c-9051-8416-46859f10cce6@network-heretics.com> <20210416031704.gu46kq46fmp6a3yh@crankycanuck.ca> <6AABB43E-FB70-4FDE-AA59-3D2AE25F4B64@me.com> <433863C0CD9449636063CDE3@PSB> <f85245a0-f2c0-cc2f-88f9-465aaab9659a@mtcc.com> <71A3F4ECF01DBB59C3038E1D@PSB>
From: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>
Message-ID: <0814a4ae-4c38-b462-6f77-4dff34fd88c6@mtcc.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:03:05 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <71A3F4ECF01DBB59C3038E1D@PSB>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/Yri6OS4Ioxe3fBtjAPcjfS4KbR0>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 22:03:13 -0000
On 4/17/21 10:28 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > > Indeed, that is at least a key part of the problem -- and a > problem that I believe Andrew, myself, Randy, and probably Brian > were trying to address from our different perspectives. It is > the part of this problem that I think has gotten worse in the > last decade or so. It is one that the anti-harassment > procedures and guidelines for conduct developed during that > period either do not address or have proven inadequate to > prevent or remedy. I suggest that guidelines for improved > terminology will not help either. People can jump down the > throats of others (or snarl at them) for departing from > homogeneous opinion or the preference of leadership in a WG (or > even in other contexts) without violating any specific rules > (even though it is fairly clear from RFC 7154 that it is bad > behavior) with impunity. Part of the failing is that passive aggressive behavior is tolerated in my experience. But outright hostility is certainly tolerated way too much too. Just because you aren't couching something as an ad hominem doesn't mean that you aren't being aggressive. Part of the problem is passive working group chairs and that AD's don't scale to deal with that. Indeed, if you're an AD about the last thing you want on your plate is wg chairs behaving badly I would think. Essentially you're talking about taking the time to get the back story for somebody who can only keep loose tabs on the tech, let alone how the wg is being run and its day to day operation. > >> Who needs that kind of grief? Especially when you're not >> getting paid to take it. > Exactly. > > I don't see any way to stop that behavior -- and stop it from > driving people away from those WGs at least and probably the > IETF more generally -- unless: > > (1) The IESG, perhaps borrowing ideas for other SDOs, will not > tolerate (i.e., charter or allow to continue) WGs whose > participation represents only a narrow range of interests. > > (2) The IESG and community will not tolerate WGs (or other > groups) in which shutting down dissent or questions that differ > from the opinions of WG leadership (including de facto > leadership by those you describe as manor lords) is a regular > practice. Dang it, I knew my spelling looked suspect for manor :) > (3) The community has effective ways to push back on individuals > who exhibit that sort of shutting down or snarling behavior > regularly, whether it is confined to one WG or not. It often becomes just a war of attrition until you ask why you're doing this. For a newbie that question gets asked a lot sooner rather than later. > > Of course a WG should not need to tolerate someone who raises > the same questions or proposals repeatedly after they have been > fairly considered and rejected, but that is disruptive behavior > and we have many years of mostly-successful experience in > dealing with it. Right, I'm not talking about religitation on an individual basis. But it can be really hard from the outside to understand why various decisions were made and frankly I don't know of any other way to do that than just ask. Do we record hums and/or working group consensus calls and what they represent? Even that would go some way to help get up to speed. The document is the distillation of what the protocol is, but the back story of *why* it is the way it is is often just as important. > > Independent of the impact on feelings and participation, the > behavior you describe damages the credibility of the IETF and > its work if a cabal, especially one with shared commercial > interests, can take over (or initiate) a WG, push documents into > and through IETF Last Call, and then successfully claim IETF > consensus and standards status for the results. What change was that? > > And none of the above would likely be meaningful or effective > unless there is also a mechanism for reporting problems and > having them considered that does not put the reporter at risk > for further abuse. In that regard, the recent IESG statement > about Last Calls may be a step backward. If someone feels a need > to make a Last Call comment identifying ways in which claimed > consensus (in a WG, on a mailing list, etc.) is invalid because > those who disagreed were silenced or driven away, it should be > possible to make that comment to the IESG with the same degree > of anonymity associated with the Ombudsteam process. More > generally, someone should be able to make such a report to an AD > or the whole IESG at any time and have it taken seriously > without disclosing the identity of the reporter. At least for > Last Calls, that seems to be precluded by the new process > description. > This of course has the same AD scaling problem as above. Real Supreme Courts spend considerable time and effort with themselves and their staff to scale up, and that's their day job. AD have no such staff and working group squabbles are hopefully not a significant portion of their day job. Mike
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… John Levine
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Salz, Rich
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Eliot Lear
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Salz, Rich
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Jim Fenton
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Salz, Rich
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Nico Williams
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Nico Williams
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… John Levine
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Christian Huitema
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Livingood, Jason
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Dan Harkins
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Nico Williams
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Colin Perkins
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Masataka Ohta
- RE: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… tom petch
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Salz, Rich
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… John R Levine
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Salz, Rich
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- motivation to "join" IETF (was: the old fellowshi… Keith Moore
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Leif Johansson
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Warren Kumari
- RE: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Michael McBride
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Salz, Rich
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Michael Thomas
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Keith Moore
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Wes Hardaker
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Michael Thomas
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Michael Thomas
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Keith Moore
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Michael Thomas
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Keith Moore
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… scott
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Michael Thomas
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Michael Thomas
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Keith Moore
- New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship program) Andrew Sullivan
- Re: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship progra… John C Klensin
- Re: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship progra… Ole Jacobsen
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Fernando Gont
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Fernando Gont
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Fernando Gont
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Fernando Gont
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Fernando Gont
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Brian Carpenter
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… S Moonesamy
- Re: motivation to "join" IETF (was: the old fello… Lars Eggert
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… tom petch
- RE: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Ofer Inbar
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Salz, Rich
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Warren Kumari
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Mary B
- RE: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: the old fellowship program, was Wow, we're fa… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship progra… John C Klensin
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… S Moonesamy
- Re: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship progra… Michael Thomas
- RE: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship progra… Larry Masinter
- Re: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship progra… John C Klensin
- RE: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship progra… Larry Masinter
- Re: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship progra… Michael Thomas
- Re: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship progra… Michael Richardson
- Re: New-comers (was Re: the old fellowship progra… Michael Thomas
- What's the alternative to "snarling"? (was: New-c… Keith Moore
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Bron Gondwana
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? (was: N… lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? (was: N… Keith Moore
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Ofer Inbar
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Keith Moore
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Leif Johansson
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? (was: N… Leif Johansson
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Masataka Ohta
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Keith Moore
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Keith Moore
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Leif Johansson
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Leif Johansson
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Keith Moore
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Keith Moore
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Dave Cridland
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Christian Huitema
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Salz, Rich
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Keith Moore
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Keith Moore
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Clint Chaplin
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Salz, Rich
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Randy Presuhn
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Keith Moore
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Michael Thomas
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Keith Moore
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Leif Johansson
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Michael Thomas
- Re: Wow, we're famous, was WG Review: Effective T… Ofer Inbar
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Randy Presuhn
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Keith Moore
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Michael Thomas
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Richard Shockey
- adapting IETF in light of github and similar tool… Keith Moore
- RE: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Larry Masinter
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Richard Shockey
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Leif Johansson
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Lloyd W
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Dave Cridland
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Bron Gondwana
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Lloyd W
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Keith Moore
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … John Levine
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Salz, Rich
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Nick Hilliard
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Keith Moore
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Eliot Lear
- RE: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Larry Masinter
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Fred Baker
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Jay Daley
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Jay Daley
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Lloyd W
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Bron Gondwana
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Jay Daley
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Bron Gondwana
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: adapting IETF in light of github and similar … Nick Hilliard