Re: [113attendees] remote-inclusiveness (was: Re: hybrid meetings: the worst of both worlds)

[Toerless Eckert <[e-mail]>]

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 09:27:58AM +0100, Jay Daley wrote:
> > I have just seen outside of IETF over the decades a lot more remote-inclusive
> > options that i think are also worth to explore for IETF. Sitting in a side-meeting
> > room in the IETF and NOT having a remote participation option for example strikes
> > me as particularily objectionable. Sitting in a bar and trying to get actual
> > technical work done, but then not understanding anyone due to background noise
> > equally so.
> 
> Side meetings are deliberately very different from other sessions as repeatedly stated by the IESG:
> 
> https://www.ietf.org/blog/public-side-meetings/
> 
> Significant effort has been put into improving the remote experience during IETF meetings but, for the reasons in that blog post, not side meetings.  While I understand your frustration regarding side meetings, an assessment of remote participation for the whole meeting based on an experience in a side meeting will never be fair and representative. 

Thanks, Jay

Wrt to side meetings, there are two different frustrations:

Deliberately providing physical space (rooms), but not webex space for side
meeting strikes me as highly illogical. That is an IESG policy issue. I claim it
is a remote-unfriendly policy.

Deliberately NOT using remote participation tools in a side-meeting strikes
me as highly remote-unfriendly. That is a side-meeting organizer issue.

The linkage is of course that side meeting organizers not well versed in remote-friendly
tooling might have an easier time if the IETF policy would make its tools available
to them. Like it is for finding a room.

Aka: as long as IETF policy in support of remote participation in side meetings
is as it is compared to its support for in-person meeting (rooms), its really
difficult to give side-meeting organizers a hard time when they choose NOT to support
remote participation. 

Cheers
    Toerless

> Jay
> 
> -- 
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director 
> [e-mail]
> > 
> > Yes, spending more time by doing local and then remote meetings would be nice,
> > but i already know that only a minority of people that where able to meet locally
> > would make themselves available remotely to the same degree.
> > 
> > Cheers
> >    Toerless
> > 
> >> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 07:04:56PM -0600, Kyle Rose wrote:
> >> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022, 6:54 AM Michael Richardson <[e-mail]>
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> I've been doing 1 meeting remote since around 2004.
> >>> I got multicast IP to work once, but then the IETF abandonned that method.
> >>> I know all about how remote people get "excluded", but ...
> >>> 
> >>> Toerless Eckert <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>>> One wish i have is that people on-site should be remote-inclusive
> >>>> whenever they do announce/organize an activity that easily could
> >>>> include remote participation.
> >>> 
> >>> I don't have that wish.
> >>> I wish that people who want to organize side meetings with remote people
> >>> would just have a "zoom" meeting next week, with all the people remote.
> >>> 
> >>>> And no: using the words "bar" and "bof" together is not a valid
> >>> excuse
> >>> 
> >>> I want us to return to bar bofs happenning in bars with beer and napkins.
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> Agreed.
> >> 
> >> More generally, there would be little point in traveling were all
> >> interactions handicapped to the degree that would be required for full
> >> remote participant equity. The IETF should provide reasonable accommodation
> >> for remote attendees (which IMO includes things like the new local/remote
> >> mic queue discipline) but accept that there is value in *being there* that
> >> cannot be replicated by remote attendees via any near-term telepresence
> >> technology.
> >> 
> >> Moreover, the IETF should not apologize for wanting to maximize the
> >> benefits of the reality we inhabit. These are constraints not under our
> >> control.
> >> 
> >> Kyle
> >> 
> >>> 
> > 
> > -- 
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> > 
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> > 

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