Re: [113attendees] hybrid meetings: the worst of both worlds

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Mon, 28 March 2022 20:53 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: 113attendees@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: 113attendees@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D00213A1543 for <113attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 13:53:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.011
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lx1MioN8h3Un for <113attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 13:53:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-he1eur04on070c.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe0d::70c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69DF53A1270 for <113attendees@ietf.org>; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 13:53:05 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=QedlRM9RY9kHn4/RuehxDqTJgY3W5KBRpxe0tpERaE3qJAR/7/4MlWEoC05b094Tak7AiEjvPLuWGrpJy9aHuVFmwzAIgw5oPr2f1Ns8Q90SeWerZjYAF+kVioYp2kXx2e1YRxDSXCPWvBE9e+fKEAhzO7NjXZmB3uQC7gSDm50VgxeRnukbwVNHVjOEtzgt2IFylk2I0SZ/zCQkx+IaKJLALn85U5xjmwcocU4/lD0WXhVZaCd5ZlWeNqny+lKTL4BkR2/ygiLfVLzxXNHol0Yl5RhP+SX/HRVHXooSpr9A0KZ5Xz7jK9N1nnv4fjfb4tVlrxyISCBByHBTJ548Cg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=ILuS2L8ECSAtnUQqP9o0c7mo09k5RioJKd2q/qz7tdg=; b=Fac2pkGy67XvGqWdbLVXIlpb0kOQmdmm4CiKHMMlPJJNcY0n1dXW3L+qL+EwoL2EOQe28t4NjXAivxghS4riKjULrNDRG2R5gpz8ATlZpBwGUMXzuW6bXhtPWj68BGle5qk5MBEbdi/SXnRt3o4ig6PCr0TlsPgf6REMH4muhjQr+J2kNdLvz+wsQIWPKZ3kC5UHHsc78UPNKIDrCVm/2Y9/KZonBOnHvzxqd7QO5l32uM2uWveIHxZe+psBllCYGWPY6aJk4Y/Q8LiAqLI0Ww/nFtyinBQMuBfiTr5ayvt4XHu/kXbFUtGKXPL/+IAF4vLPOhNpx/VL98AKX6Fihw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ILuS2L8ECSAtnUQqP9o0c7mo09k5RioJKd2q/qz7tdg=; b=sGDKxXNTAlZTMJBAPWJQ/y4dD3tPHw4rI+YDLcL27fdt4rMuNwhlo8uoyggdtJviO3hbcYmfm68k4BcN45QTxiuyHiUUCT9R1Pu2tNP0nv3wKLRg/CxgNNkWKdO5bHwZba4EdOieJS4jRkzxW0sWmUnU1ggck92qpl2oKP8XTy5UBgFgwi6wi8CsWSLtpu9WxNJERjCZwsoJpXFEk/iKTPA0za9RVtBuxwalSfRJe0ObOVl1/BOENTOF+buA7rMDqD7r28jy1rc/O3jfmmDfb399BUGIvw1YdUcqWX87ZJLPSfst8F917pGDKZDeo4F/HwHe0iCasfPIQ756CPj3UA==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by VI1PR02MB5022.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:c6::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5102.22; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:52:58 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c183:9519:74b5:b606]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c183:9519:74b5:b606%7]) with mapi id 15.20.5102.022; Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:52:58 +0000
Message-ID: <30536bbd-c676-344e-1cbe-ae1529eda764@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 21:52:56 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, 113attendees@ietf.org
References: <CAN40gStm5GUrqEOf-TwKEpitUUvBLDAvXC=asDVb-AxJ_bBq3Q@mail.gmail.com> <742B4ADD-593A-4722-B7ED-C24B107A1EA6@sunet.se> <a1d325f3-d246-e63f-1b93-0d97348a3063@cs.tcd.ie> <96015.1648472821@dooku>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <96015.1648472821@dooku>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------P5JEPNNVFzxYuuz09MPxVWOI"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6P192CA0023.EURP192.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:4:b8::33) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: be73d5de-723b-44b5-aac0-08da10fcf0e2
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR02MB5022:EE_
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <VI1PR02MB5022CF64678768C9B9E2C1D7A81D9@VI1PR02MB5022.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230001)(4636009)(366004)(83380400001)(66556008)(2616005)(31696002)(186003)(6486002)(66476007)(8676002)(786003)(508600001)(86362001)(316002)(66946007)(21480400003)(33964004)(53546011)(36756003)(31686004)(6512007)(44832011)(38100700002)(6506007)(8936002)(235185007)(2906002)(5660300002)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 2
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: 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
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1: GsA88i/VpD0KMQ==
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: be73d5de-723b-44b5-aac0-08da10fcf0e2
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2022 20:52:58.6942 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: UCedwYI8mWMu4XPllHKR9OU62/vbqyw2Wq5m6a5px9odbKLWOxhbcMhfS0OUyfcM
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR02MB5022
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/113attendees/RyD05VpFbbYVZLsdvVJ82d8iivg>
Subject: Re: [113attendees] hybrid meetings: the worst of both worlds
X-BeenThere: 113attendees@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Mailing list for IETF 113 attendees <113attendees.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/113attendees>, <mailto:113attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/113attendees/>
List-Post: <mailto:113attendees@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:113attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees>, <mailto:113attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:53:12 -0000

Hiya,

On 28/03/2022 14:07, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>      > I would though encourage the IESG to be more radical with the f2f
>      > agenda time than was the case for 113. My particular
>      > suggestion/hobby-horse would be to run the hackathon Mon-Thu in the
>      > mornings and WG sessions/plenary/other things in the afternoons. As
>      > others have said, we could also encourage use of online interims for
> 
> It's an interesting suggestion, and I think we should try it somehow.
> It may be too radical a change for some.

Fair point. And it'd have to be done in some way so as to
avoid big new costs (e.g. for re-arranging rooms). OTOH, if
there're only small numbers in the WG sessions maybe keeping
round-table setups would work all week.

Again though, even if that particular suggestion isn't tried,
I suspect being more radical than 113 is going to be needed
if we're gonna end up succeeding with the hybrid meetings
that are inevitable for the coming years. (As someone else
said, climate change alone is likely to be sufficient to
force that.)

> (As a fellow morning-hater, I would personally find that order a problem.
> I hack better in the evening, and sessions are a good motivation to wake up)

Wait, what? Isn't the IETF meeting agenda supposed to be
designed around me? :-)

Cheers,
S.

> 
> I wrote that we should have far fewer sessions during f2f time in my
> "many-fine-dinners" draft, which was not I think, well received by SHMOO.
> 
>