IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [113attendees] hybrid meetings: the worst of both worlds

Martin.Horneffer@telekom.de Sat, 26 March 2022 08:40 UTC

Return-Path: <Martin.Horneffer@telekom.de>
X-Original-To: 113attendees@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: 113attendees@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9653A0F0A for <113attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 01:40:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.105
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telekom.de
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GvhCypJTv15B for <113attendees@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 01:40:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mailout21.telekom.de (mailout21.telekom.de [194.25.225.215]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A9E53A0F02 for <113attendees@ietf.org>; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 01:40:21 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telekom.de; i=@telekom.de; q=dns/txt; s=dtag1; t=1648284022; x=1679820022; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=ryBU+2jymhEN/eKNMplWGAvHqRwUt7tavQ0TBeDDZH4=; b=q9Ra88XivfzNF8z2qF1udWkig8scbd5xAA8WWtHBaiqLQUVMNPWbvKCz dXzhBgwgt+xKkEb8yv9KDuNQ4VFHcclYB5W1SzgS/8A7VANIzprXDMeZ+ tScAVTH1/siJ/LUaEbcjNVdemSnFTZNjv/kG4CgQGdxNmlG/uScrwMdez nx7Wds3b387NVPvNgbxkogxwBYpdKDbtimAf0KLmLUO1sbUU52OpsPBa0 14qTYD4OlCTqDZtRRIO4QwfoLEc38tHSXwj+0hRkdlSeOO69Gshy2y/QP PuhMOINH7v4mVDJ9ylC43eoWknbheqx4gvgBXVf2rNrxyoWLwEAv+R6oC w==;
Received: from qde9xy.de.t-internal.com ([10.171.254.32]) by MAILOUT21.dmznet.de.t-internal.com with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256; 26 Mar 2022 09:39:15 +0100
IronPort-SDR: +pULmwPMY3yVtDQb8Q3vF9cRzGVFksyc+iMX5Klj2ivTm1kT8ccqWoIhOnacJGbPYBJ2sdXDGg 9FlkZrdR2sm2vHrtwcCGVG9RfHkR3hy6g=
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.90,211,1643670000"; d="scan'208,217";a="482017133"
X-MGA-submission: MDGDyS7Sm2habznClr/4Riux1ycX2B01RzGsyx+Ngsq4Bv9kqp/2MxIwNauWd9zc6kh2V9NtNeLnI5UJiRhRYPeGCMaGZ69W6FH6buUDXEQFwahN/uGdA0TaCUgcXxmc2GxJZh+MplSBBAa1+lrl+Pa+t0THbHgACPV5lErfXZRlEQ==
Received: from he105715.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.169.118.51]) by QDE9Y1.de.t-internal.com with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256; 26 Mar 2022 09:39:15 +0100
Received: from HE105717.EMEA1.cds.t-internal.com (10.169.118.53) by HE105715.emea1.cds.t-internal.com (10.169.118.51) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.32; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 09:39:14 +0100
Received: from HE104164.emea1.cds.t-internal.com (10.171.40.35) by HE105717.EMEA1.cds.t-internal.com (10.169.118.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.32 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 09:39:14 +0100
Received: from DEU01-BE0-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.7.177) by O365mail06.telekom.de (172.30.0.233) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.32; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 09:39:12 +0100
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=RK33pf5Dhht6B2CfT9kt+tQefJiZcuxJ6U6hvnFAmUQmIXREiVVAGhrjGGEW1gcdzcZUKEF03qEyRIxocNGkm8GbteX2DDAWSnLS6cFiq3gQ6Cad5LRMnxEInD6yhw/G6UgKoH6WwBbkJfZnBTcwuF2jVZ1PX6gr5b+2uXof9JJl7xtelVlu7vhgSip79sY6o2M3IY/s8awu0v+wgTXvfMUsNF3QrfxSfnnIBjPI860Sxsogk8/R5NSdRi63Mr0JIU6YnsnSI1gSfVzcPZgJffFTidvN8mgaNfphltZNQgSDbVUWaqmqYy+eKlhSHO5UDp6nFC88/NyuYnoKBO6Yfw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=ryBU+2jymhEN/eKNMplWGAvHqRwUt7tavQ0TBeDDZH4=; b=b3ObkLgqmrCzyfRTemJNclQfNcILcPKPs6vCL7u4JrV+PiIr8RomSrkBD8gHwjkDAmuP5REXOBI6FnhVniSDggvgyyMpYoKpjbcR1TPZ8k145TDVl4xJXVtuxgG5gKxe3Hu2avYWBjNNBVyMaRmhDqIV+Y7We97HDf5uYbAiK7xCUh8R7a2VGpkKte8JDSTYGMsrl8Oyh0MpJ5fvTrkO8mVggpFK739KwWZOJGlbGjOQIh32gPN72gltkOLVHJTJGR7mqHn2mI+zTuQARAkFguW5deyWRyo5oALhGH71YNuDm2KBIJB8dcjQmTtP9sESfnlo/RHh6oNCHCRr7u8HTA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=telekom.de; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=telekom.de; dkim=pass header.d=telekom.de; arc=none
Received: from FRYP281MB1039.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:d10:77::7) by FRYP281MB0704.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:d10:71::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5123.8; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:39:13 +0000
Received: from FRYP281MB1039.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::947f:ed29:6296:314]) by FRYP281MB1039.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::947f:ed29:6296:314%7]) with mapi id 15.20.5123.012; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:39:13 +0000
From: Martin.Horneffer@telekom.de
To: 113attendees@ietf.org
Thread-Topic: [113attendees] hybrid meetings: the worst of both worlds
Thread-Index: AQHYQE07SV+elTHFIEey/ww9/l8z4KzRWDe/
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:39:13 +0000
Message-ID: <FRYP281MB103924A77F31F8B55CDDB659EE1B9@FRYP281MB1039.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <91b2da16-46e1-2370-d0f9-786934637c09@sunet.se>
In-Reply-To: <91b2da16-46e1-2370-d0f9-786934637c09@sunet.se>
Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US
Content-Language: de-DE
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=telekom.de;
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: dfa7b34d-364c-4386-0459-08da0f041b26
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: FRYP281MB0704:EE_
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <FRYP281MB0704FAA6E3D9AFD52FDD22F9EE1B9@FRYP281MB0704.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:FRYP281MB1039.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230001)(4636009)(366004)(122000001)(38100700002)(86362001)(33656002)(166002)(82960400001)(38070700005)(8676002)(66946007)(66556008)(76116006)(66476007)(6916009)(52536014)(66446008)(64756008)(5660300002)(2906002)(316002)(8936002)(9686003)(55016003)(66574015)(6506007)(7696005)(186003)(26005)(83380400001)(508600001)(966005)(71200400001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: 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
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_FRYP281MB103924A77F31F8B55CDDB659EE1B9FRYP281MB1039DEUP_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: FRYP281MB1039.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: dfa7b34d-364c-4386-0459-08da0f041b26
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Mar 2022 08:39:13.5327 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bde4dffc-4b60-4cf6-8b04-a5eeb25f5c4f
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ZNKOzQnxzNWaxQtmg2VHQYjbR99uPy+ihGDtwCGgQCSCRqZviimxgbC/+GGvNhBI1Sb6TgyWdNvKlT6yDJUoXlUljzbcri9dbd0nqI2/51I=
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: FRYP281MB0704
X-OriginatorOrg: telekom.de
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/113attendees/nltvY7Ej56h9xPwhRJudGys56v0>
Subject: Re: [113attendees] hybrid meetings: the worst of both worlds
X-BeenThere: 113attendees@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Mailing list for IETF 113 attendees <113attendees.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/113attendees>, <mailto:113attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/113attendees/>
List-Post: <mailto:113attendees@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:113attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees>, <mailto:113attendees-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:40:28 -0000

Just my 2 cents,

while I agree to all the details, I don’t subscribe to the summary “worst of both worlds”.
Meetecho did a good job to integrate on-site.
And I DID experience fruitful hallway discussions, even though not as much as in earlier times.
And I think that will get better with every percent we can increase on-site participation.

Given the current situation I believe hybrid meetings are the right thing to do, and I hope that on-site will increase over time.

Maybe we can way ways to foster on-site participation a bit.
(As for my special case, public transport’s “Fahrgeldnachforderung” didn’t help. Prague had a much nicer solution.)

Best regards,
Martin


Von: 113attendees <113attendees-bounces@ietf.org> im Auftrag von Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>
Datum: Freitag, 25. März 2022 um 14:35
An: 113attendees@ietf.org <113attendees@ietf.org>
Betreff: [113attendees] hybrid meetings: the worst of both worlds

I spent the week onsite in Wienna...

As usual the arrangements are great and the local host made this a very nice experience.

And then there is the hybrid meeting thing... imo hybrid works well as technology and completely sucks on a human level.

This statement may be controversial and/or unpopular in the IETF where we're all about the tech but...

- hybrid means there is not enough folks onsite to create critical mass for the "hallway track"
- remote-participation is arguably better for the technical WG process than onsite at this point
- remote is really bad for the informal discussions (gather is very disappointing imo)

The most efficient WG were where most of the contributurs had decided to show up onsite.

The most important discussions I had were (as usual) not in a WG meeting.

Maybe the IETF needs to rehink the purpouse of onsite meetings.

We have made the remote experience so good that the "professionalized" aspect of churning out RFCs doesn't really need onsite.

However, an IETF with no human interaction might be professional but it won't be efficient.

        Cheers Leif

--
113attendees mailing list
113attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email