Re: Effective discourse in the IETF
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Fri, 05 July 2019 03:52 UTC
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Subject: Re: Effective discourse in the IETF
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
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Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 23:52:11 -0400
Cc: IETF Discuss <ietf@ietf.org>
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References: <20190628232206.GC10013@kduck.mit.edu> <e7bf71c3-7842-8699-1f56-36ffa823da99@comcast.net> <20190701223914.GK13810@kduck.mit.edu> <bad99f11-0d66-4aba-72ef-b4b648470753@comcast.net> <34A581FE-BCFA-4FDD-A626-372E036BD79A@cooperw.in> <20190703125524.GB98598@verdi> <c24b3857-fa3e-46a9-f55b-dd160250f290@acm.org> <2807ff5a-7fd3-65cc-5574-ae05df6c622c@acm.org> <20190703141309.GX49950@hanna.meerval.net> <F86FDC5A-AF66-492E-A1FC-678486C26065@fugue.com> <20190703151443.GA49950@hanna.meerval.net> <ce29c166-bdb6-c441-8104-632541b1f12d@network-heretics.com> <7acee776-8dce-294c-6261-8d5c65ce46f7@gmail.com> <98d40a67-7cc5-182a-a203-4b1d06c18917@network-heretics.com> <43377a5b-931e-25f2-353b-8fd4a452ea67@gmail.com> <077de81f-6398-5690-4992-72c0b8251d08@network-heretics.com> <a66a328c-3765-85ef-837f-78f90df65275@gmail.com> <c52e7256-6804-ab16-1cc0-b59b0efae631@network-heretics.com> <F8B7949C-9C82-4A15-8B45-0E0B304EB0E5@episteme.net> <e8fa3003-ea36-25be-1e48-14b06284ea2f@network-heretics.com> <BE1E74F6-29DC-4075-B3F7-E22E71CCC5D0@fugue.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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> On Jul 4, 2019, at 3:00 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote: > > If I were to state a corollary to Crocker’s rule, it is that in order for any useful discourse to occur, each of us has to let go of a very specific idea. That idea, stated from my perspective, is that “Ted is usually right.” To test this rule on yourself, do not substitute “I” for “Ted.” Make it personal. Substitute in your own name. And then say “Ted is usually wrong” (but substitute your name) and see how that feels. It can be a fruitful exploratory process. I think I would say that in order for Crocker’s Rules to work, one must be at least as willing to discover that he/she is “wrong” (in some sense, including that he/she has failed to take some important case into account), as to discover that he/she is right. I would not personally recommend adopting either a “_____ is usually wrong” or “______ is usually right” mindset, because either approach seems to me to promote a kind of closed mindedness. I would say try to have an open mind, but if that’s too hard, be optimistic about yourself rather than pessimistic. It’s easier to learn and take advantage of discovery from an optimistic point of view. (I say this as one who was conditioned to pessimism and self deprecation from early childhood; it’s very hard to overcome that mindset and realize your potential.) (For myself, I am often grateful to learn something that proves me wrong, because the learning is useful; and sometimes find it awkward - almost embarrassing - to be proven right. But I don’t accept social pressure as a form of proof.) > Realizing that you were wrong is actually an incredibly good outcome, not bad at all. Certainly agree with that. Can be awkward or painful but generally good overall. Keith
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Job Snijders
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kyle Rose
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Job Snijders
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Mary B
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Jared Mauch
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
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- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Jari Arkko
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alissa Cooper
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Paul Wouters
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… John C Klensin
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Richard Barnes
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Tim Bray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Stephen Farrell
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Richard Barnes
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Pete Resnick
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Miles Fidelman
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Pete Resnick
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF S Moonesamy
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Marc Petit-Huguenin
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Randy Bush
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
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