Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation)
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Wed, 03 July 2019 19:33 UTC
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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 15:33:13 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, Mike StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net>
cc: IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation)
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--On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 09:59 -0400 Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> wrote: > > --On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 20:44 -0400 Alissa Cooper > <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> >> As I mentioned to you off-list, your request below for Ben to >> use his inside voice is demeaning, unprofessional language >> that is not suitable for the IETF discussion list, per RFC >> 3005. Repeated use of unprofessional language may be deterring >> others from voicing their opinion for fear of being >> disrespected. It is important that everyone in the community >> feels comfortable enough to express their own views on the >> IETF discussion list if they choose to do so. >> ... > > Alissa: > > Mike has raised some topics that need discussion, but the tone > does worry me. I believe the tone is keeping others from > voicing their opinion, and that it is important that everyone > feel comfortable enough to express their own view on this list. Russ, I've read the subsequent discussion but I think yours might be the best note to respond specifically to, so am doing so. In my long note on this subject, I tried to avoid expressing a strong opinion about what Mike said in the message Alissa cites. Personally, I would have preferred that he express himself somewhat differently. However, probably like most others who have been around the IETF and contributed to its technical work for a long time, I've had my ideas ridiculed and have been insulted and demeaned by people from IETF's history who were masters of the arts of insults and invective. While I have never learned to like being insulted, demeaned, or harassed and don't expect others to either, I think it is reasonable to expect that the IETF leadership and designated functionaries (SAAs and IETF Chairs both included) will try to avoid being too easily offended or outraged even when they are (quite reasonably) trying to protect others who might feel uncomfortable expressing their own views in what they might perceive as a hostile environment. However, I am concerned about two aspects of this issue that may be quite separate and that impact, respectively, whether or not people feel free to express their views and whether it is considered reasonable to question "leadership" or "management" decisions. (1) When a comment like Mike's --which would rank as extremely mild in any catalogue of abusive and unprofessional behavior in the IETF, not that relationship justifies it-- gets the amount and level of attention it has gotten, one possible effect is the presumably-desired one of making others feel more secure about expressing their own views. Two others, at least equally likely IMO, are convincing someone who is contemplating speaking up that saying something unpopular or disapproving will get them attacked and thereby convincing them to be silent instead and convincing the person being criticized for their style or tone that it just isn't work trying to comment on that issue, or IETF issues generally, any more. That clearly isn't desirable either. (2) It has been mentioned by others, but I've very concerned that, when someone has tried to ask questions about what occurred and why, and has to ask them repeatedly because he or she isn't getting clear answers, that there is the appearance that some comment is seized on as an excuse to push back against and condemn the question-asking. In terms of discouraging people from speaking freely and expressing their own views (and/or questioning the behavior of those in authority), that is about as bad as it gets, whether that was the intent of the remarks or not. I am reminded of a nasty children's "game" in which party A tries to stay within whatever rules have been set by trying to provide party B to respond in a way that violates those rules and then demands that party B be punished for that. In other contexts, party A is called "the bully" and party B "the victim". best, john
- RFC Series Editor Resignation Sarah B
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Aaron Falk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Terry Manderson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexander Neilson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Terry Manderson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexander Neilson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexander Neilson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Stewart Bryant
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kyle Rose
- Re: [IAB] RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Hardie
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Eliot Lear
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Hardie
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John Levine
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Mike StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Allison Mankin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Jared Mauch
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Hardie
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- RE: RFC Series Editor Resignation Adrian Farrel
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Toerless Eckert
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [IAB] RFC Series Editor Resignation Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Leif Johansson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Leif Johansson
- RE: RFC Series Editor Resignation Roni Even (A)
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Leif Johansson
- RE: RFC Series Editor Resignation Roni Even (A)
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Carsten Bormann
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Stan Kalisch
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Livingood, Jason
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Leif Johansson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Nick Hilliard
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation S Moonesamy
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alissa Cooper
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John Leslie
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Scott O. Bradner
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alissa Cooper
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Scott O. Bradner
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Series… John C Klensin
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Russ Housley
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Job Snijders
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kyle Rose
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Job Snijders
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Mary B
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Jared Mauch
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kathleen Moriarty
- communication styles (was Re: RFC Series Editor R… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Dave Cridland
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Bob Hinden
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Jari Arkko
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alissa Cooper
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Paul Wouters
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… John C Klensin
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Richard Barnes
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Tim Bray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Stephen Farrell
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Richard Barnes
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Pete Resnick
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Miles Fidelman
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Pete Resnick
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF S Moonesamy
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Marc Petit-Huguenin
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Randy Bush
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Hector Santos
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Hector Santos
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexandre Petrescu