Re: Effective discourse in the IETF

[Richard Barnes <[e-mail]>]

Just to +1 a couple of points Job makes below.

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 11:15 AM Job Snijders <[e-mail]> wrote:

> > That is, we tend not to engage in self-censorship.
>
> I respectfully disagree, I believe there have been milions of instances
> where IETFers have deleted and not-yet-send emails because they realized
> that for one reason or another the message would not positively
> contribute.
>

These observations are not contradictory.  There is a privileged group
(largely the top posters to ietf@) who feel free to say whatever is on
their mind.  There is also a broader set of folks who do not.  I can see
how Ted arrived at his conclusion, given the bias in the data.

I would also challenge the phrase “self-censorship”.  Adapting ones
communications for an audience is not censorship, it’s effective
communications.  It can require that we think a bit before we speak, but
that cost is offset by the benefit of a better functioning community.

> The IETF can’t function that way.   We have to practice.  This is not
> > a social club.  This doesn’t mean that we should be unkind to each
> > other: we should definitely do our best to be kind.  But being kind
> > isn’t always being nice, and being nice can’t be the standard of
> > discourse that the IETF follows if we wish to continue to do good
> > work.
>
> I absolutely do not think that "being nice" and "good work" are mutually
> exclusive, quite the opposite. Some of the best work done was the result
> of people being nice to each other. I define being nice as demonstrating
> patience and acting with empathy towards each other.
>

1000% this.  I've seen this work out across a bunch of different technical
communities, where there were strong disagreements, but also strong norms
for respect.

It may be surprising to folks that open discussion and strong enforcement
of community norms go together, but they're necessary partners.  One
person's speech can discourage another's, so if we really want to have an
open community, we need to keep each other honest not just technically, but
in terms of respect as well.

--Richard