Re: Effective discourse in the IETF
Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> Wed, 03 July 2019 16:50 UTC
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: Effective discourse in the IETF
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 12:50:09 -0400
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Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
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On Jul 3, 2019, at 12:27 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote: > The world has moved on, and that’s a good thing. What used to be acceptable in terms of communication, isn’t; the bar has been raised. If the IETF wants to draw from global membership, it’s going to need to modify (and/or mollify) behavior that used to be acceptable. There is a whole wide world of cultures and genders that can, and should, have something to say about how to make the world better, and *we need to be nice* and *we need to be welcoming.* That doesn’t mean we have to accept poor technical solutions, but we can and should do a better job talking to each other. To be clear, Rich, the reason I shared those books is that I think the IETF would benefit greatly from some of us who are vocal reading them. I certainly benefited from reading them. I am not suggesting that we go back to the bad old days of excusing deliberate rudeness. I think we do need to be nice and welcoming, but we also need to speak up when we see something happening that seems wrong. When that speech is dismissed, the result of this is that the speaker has no choice but to be silenced or speak louder. If we ignore this aspect of the feedback cycle, the only possible outcome is that unwanted speech will be suppressed, either through self-censorship or through PR-action once the volume gets too high. I took a course last year called the altMBA where all we did was write, criticize each other, and then reflect on the criticism. Okay, that’s a gross oversimplification, but the point is that the value of that cycle was immense. When people got up their courage and really offered generous criticism, which included saying things like “this doesn’t make sense to me” and “I don’t think you are right about this,” it was incredibly useful. We were explicitly told to expect this kind of criticism, and requested to offer it, and that’s why it worked. We have to encourage both sides of the criticism loop, not just one. I don’t mean that the IETF needs to turn into the altMBA, but I hear a lot of people really completely ignoring the responsibility that participants have when they are being criticized, and just talking about the responsibilities of critics. And not even talking about the importance of criticism. That’s not going to work. I think we could benefit by thinking about this more seriously, and not just sloganing about it, although I will make my attempt as well: Yes, we can and should do a better job of talking to each other. But that’s a shared responsibility.
- RFC Series Editor Resignation Sarah B
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Aaron Falk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Terry Manderson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexander Neilson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Terry Manderson
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Brian E Carpenter
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kyle Rose
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Hardie
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John Levine
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Mike StJohns
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- Re: [IAB] RFC Series Editor Resignation Brian E Carpenter
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- RE: RFC Series Editor Resignation Roni Even (A)
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Leif Johansson
- RE: RFC Series Editor Resignation Roni Even (A)
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Carsten Bormann
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Stan Kalisch
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Leif Johansson
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation S Moonesamy
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alissa Cooper
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Scott O. Bradner
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Series… John C Klensin
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Russ Housley
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Job Snijders
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kyle Rose
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Job Snijders
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Mary B
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Jared Mauch
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kathleen Moriarty
- communication styles (was Re: RFC Series Editor R… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Dave Cridland
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Bob Hinden
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Jari Arkko
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alissa Cooper
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Paul Wouters
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… John C Klensin
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Richard Barnes
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Tim Bray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Stephen Farrell
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Richard Barnes
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Pete Resnick
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Miles Fidelman
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Pete Resnick
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF S Moonesamy
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Marc Petit-Huguenin
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Randy Bush
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Hector Santos
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Hector Santos
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexandre Petrescu