Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation)
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Wed, 03 July 2019 13:53 UTC
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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 09:53:41 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, Michael StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net>
cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation)
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--On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 20:44 -0400 Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > As I mentioned to you off-list, your request below for Ben to > use his inside voice is demeaning, unprofessional language > that is not suitable for the IETF discussion list, per RFC > 3005. Repeated use of unprofessional language may be deterring > others from voicing their opinion for fear of being > disrespected. It is important that everyone in the community > feels comfortable enough to express their own views on the > IETF discussion list if they choose to do so. >... Alissa, I find your note to be a little bit troubling at best. In the hope of encouraging a discussion that will move us forward, let me try to explain why. It is obvious that a number of members of the community have found the situation with the RFC Editor, certainly including the causes and circumstances of Heather's decision to not seek a contract renewal beyond this calendar year, quite problematic. Several people have leapt to conclusions about what happened and why and then charged of in pursuit of whatever assumptions that has led them to. I think that is behavior we should be discouraging whether we have specific rules against it or not and, to their credit, several members of the community have made that point. Others, including Mike, have tried to ask questions that have seemed to me to be targeted at getting a better understanding of what happened, in what sequence, and, more generally, about whether the actions taken were appropriate and consistent with good practices. To the extent to which the IETF still believes that it is open, operates by bottom-up consensus, and that Nomcom-appointed or otherwise selected leadership are accountable to the participants, such questions must be appropriate and the community has the right to expect that they will be answered in a clear and forthright way rather than, e.g., requiring that essentially the same question be asked multiple times. If there are circumstances that prevent such answers, they should be identified and explained clearly enough that the community can evaluate the criteria and whether they are being properly applied. I don't know whether you and others in the leadership agree but, to me, failure to respond clearly and completely to such questions, especially when they are posed by members of the community with long and significant records of contributions to the IETF and the Internet are fully as disrespectful, demeaning, and unprofessional as, an unfortunate choice of vocabulary or phrasing in response to what can be reasonably perceived as evasive, contradictory, or incomplete answers. I certainly don't want to encourage either behavior, but I hope that, when discouraging one, we don't lose sight of the other and potential cause end effect relationships, especially when people having to asking questions several times to get meaningful and interpretable answers (if they get them at all) can discourage participation in the IETF and open discussion and dialogue at least as effectively as other types of disrespectful behavior. Part of what motivated this note was thinking about a key bit of IETF history. As I'm sure you know, the POISED WG and creation of the contemporary IETF were initiated by a series of events and observations. One of the critical ones, at least in my opinion, was a talk at a plenary that was fairly strident in its criticism of some proposed protocol choices and the people who had made them. I wonder whether, today, a talk that described some protocols and their proponents as "roadkill on the Information Superhighway" would be taken as intended and lead to serious discussions and change or whether it would be dismissed as disrespectful, its author publicly criticized, and --whether it was the intended effect or not-- the discussion suppressed because people were afraid to subject themselves to similar criticism. I don't know that it is possible to answer the question -- circumstances are always different -- but I believe that thinking about it might help to inform our thinking, reactions, and policies. best regards, john
- RFC Series Editor Resignation Sarah B
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Aaron Falk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Terry Manderson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexander Neilson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Terry Manderson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexander Neilson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexander Neilson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Stewart Bryant
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kyle Rose
- Re: [IAB] RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Hardie
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Eliot Lear
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Hardie
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John Levine
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John C Klensin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Mike StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Allison Mankin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Jared Mauch
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Hardie
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- RE: RFC Series Editor Resignation Adrian Farrel
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Toerless Eckert
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [IAB] RFC Series Editor Resignation Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Leif Johansson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Leif Johansson
- RE: RFC Series Editor Resignation Roni Even (A)
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Leif Johansson
- RE: RFC Series Editor Resignation Roni Even (A)
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Carsten Bormann
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Stan Kalisch
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Livingood, Jason
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Leif Johansson
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Nick Hilliard
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation S Moonesamy
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alissa Cooper
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation John Leslie
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Scott O. Bradner
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alissa Cooper
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Scott O. Bradner
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Series… John C Klensin
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Russ Housley
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Job Snijders
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kyle Rose
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Job Snijders
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Mary B
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Jared Mauch
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kathleen Moriarty
- communication styles (was Re: RFC Series Editor R… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Michael StJohns
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Dave Cridland
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Bob Hinden
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Jari Arkko
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alissa Cooper
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Paul Wouters
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… John C Klensin
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Richard Barnes
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Tim Bray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Stephen Farrell
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Richard Barnes
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Pete Resnick
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Miles Fidelman
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Pete Resnick
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF S Moonesamy
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Marc Petit-Huguenin
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Randy Bush
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Hector Santos
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Hector Santos
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexandre Petrescu