Re: Effective discourse in the IETF
Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> Wed, 03 July 2019 15:29 UTC
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Subject: Re: Effective discourse in the IETF
From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
In-Reply-To: <20190703151443.GA49950@hanna.meerval.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 11:29:37 -0400
Cc: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, John Leslie <john@jlc.net>, ietf@ietf.org
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References: <20190628232206.GC10013@kduck.mit.edu> <e7bf71c3-7842-8699-1f56-36ffa823da99@comcast.net> <20190701223914.GK13810@kduck.mit.edu> <bad99f11-0d66-4aba-72ef-b4b648470753@comcast.net> <34A581FE-BCFA-4FDD-A626-372E036BD79A@cooperw.in> <20190703125524.GB98598@verdi> <c24b3857-fa3e-46a9-f55b-dd160250f290@acm.org> <2807ff5a-7fd3-65cc-5574-ae05df6c622c@acm.org> <20190703141309.GX49950@hanna.meerval.net> <F86FDC5A-AF66-492E-A1FC-678486C26065@fugue.com> <20190703151443.GA49950@hanna.meerval.net>
To: Job Snijders <job@ntt.net>
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> On Jul 3, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Job Snijders <job@ntt.net> wrote: > >> That is, we tend not to engage in self-censorship. > > I respectfully disagree, I believe there have been milions of instances > where IETFers have deleted and not-yet-send emails because they realized > that for one reason or another the message would not positively > contribute. I think there’s a few things here, mostly that we often don’t realize what is Constructive and what isn’t. In politics there is the phrase if you’re explaining you are losing. In technical discussions you often have to discuss very nuanced things and it’s easy to get lost in that and not realize when you have crossed the line from civil discourse to calling someones baby ugly. While I appreciate the directness of my dear Dutch friend, some peoples perceptions of this may be it’s a hostile environment or some self-censorship is necessary. I’m seeing a lot of things that I may feel are low quality pass through the IETF while others feel it’s their paramount achievement of their industry experience. History will judge meanwhile we can’t hold back the technical critiques while at the same time, it’s large enough that one person may not be able to know it all. This whole discussion is as much about the culture and history of the IETF as it is about where we are going as an industry group. People here often turn petty gripes into a big thing (hey, my $800/free t-shirt size, room temps, are you my travel coordinator/cruise director) when they’re unrelated to the main function which is the actual work of the IETF. The apex of this was the bad attitude event where some members of the secretariat presented. I noticed the gripes went away (for awhile) after that. I hope the personal gripes stay away, and a great example of how this went well was the power outage at a recent IETF meeting. Things just kept going on. Be the best version of yourself when on the list, and if you have feedback for me about how I’ve been horrible, I will accept your private critiques. Ask around and you can get my cell number easily (or if you look carefully it’s out there) and call me. Don’t e-mail when angry, go for a walk (or something else that will help you destress) and re-read before hitting send. See many of you in Montreal! - Jared
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Carsten Bormann
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Ted Lemon
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation S Moonesamy
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Series… John C Klensin
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Russ Housley
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Theodore Ts'o
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Job Snijders
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kyle Rose
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Keith Moore
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Richard Barnes
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Job Snijders
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Mary B
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Jared Mauch
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Richard Barnes
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Kathleen Moriarty
- communication styles (was Re: RFC Series Editor R… Andrew Sullivan
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
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- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Bob Hinden
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Jari Arkko
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alissa Cooper
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Paul Wouters
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… John C Klensin
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone (was: Re: RFC Se… Richard Barnes
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Randy Bush
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Tim Bray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Melinda Shore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Stephen Farrell
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Salz, Rich
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Choices or language and tone Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Richard Barnes
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Pete Resnick
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Miles Fidelman
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Pete Resnick
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF S Moonesamy
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Marc Petit-Huguenin
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Randy Bush
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- RE: Effective discourse in the IETF Eric Gray
- Re: Effective discourse in the IETF Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Hector Santos
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Hector Santos
- Re: RFC Series Editor Resignation Alexandre Petrescu